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Maybe not totally new highways, but we could utilize another TX approach in upgrading the US Highway System. In both Houston and Dallas, many of the US highways have been upgraded to limited access, and supplement the interstates. That way, we can have increased highway capacity without creating a whole lot of new roads.
However, anyone who thinks that Metro Atlanta isn't going to need any additional expressways at some point is living in fantasyland!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt
Where do we get the additional ROW to create the limited access roadways from? Do we buy the tax-paying parcels along the routes and remove them from the local tax coffers, just to make it easier for commuters?
GRS86 makes a good point about the Texas approach of upgrading existing major state-maintained surface/at-grade highways (federal and state highways) to limited-access highways.
cqholt makes some great comments and poses some excellent questions asking where the additional right-of-way to create new limited-access roadways would come from with existing major surface/at-grade highways lined with lots of tax revenue-generating parcels.
In regards to GRS86's idea of converting existing major surface/at-grade highways.....Converting existing major surface roads to limited-access highways may possibly be a viable idea for very-limited parts of (and targeted major at-grade junctions on) selected major surface commuter routes outside of the I-285 Perimeter.
Though because of metro Atlantans' and North Georgians' increasing general aversion to anything they view as being excessive roadbuilding, conversions of existing major surface commuter routes into full-scale controlled-access superhighways would likely be completely out of the question.....With the notable exception of Georgia Highway 316 which the Georgia Department of Transportation has plans to convert into a full-scale controlled-access superhighway between Lawrenceville and Athens.
Because of significant cultural differences between Georgia and Texas (a domineering and hard-core road construction-averse coalition of ITP/Intown Atlanta transit advocates, powerful suburban and exurban NIMBY's who want no new superhighways built near their OTP suburban/exurban paradises, and tenacious environmentalists who oppose any roadbuilding policy that could even remotely affect the heavily-wooded Appalachian foothills and mountain ranges north of the city in Georgia), large-scale road construction projects often are not received as well by the voting public in metro Atlanta and North Georgia (see the massive public backlash against the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc highway construction proposal and concept in the 2002 gubernatorial election and the 2012 T-SPLOST referendum) as they often are in and around the major population centers in the state of Texas.
I know that it sounds weird, especially for Texas natives who hail from an environment where large-scale road construction proposals often generate relatively very little public opposition and because of how the Atlanta metro region is compared directly to the Dallas and Houston metro regions because of their statuses as automobile-dominated large major metro regions in the Sunbelt, but Georgians (particularly metro Atlantans and North Georgians) often are not the most receptive to large-scale road construction projects very well.....That's despite the obvious severe lack of roadway infrastructure for an automobile-oriented metro region of Atlanta's size and population.
The (seemingly puzzling) general public aversion to large-scale road construction projects in North Georgia is one major reason why a large major metro region like Atlanta still has only one outer loop (the I-285 Perimeter) after about 50 years while comparable large major metro regions in Texas like Dallas and Houston have multiple outer loop highways that often feature tolls.
Green Austin has been doing it in recent years. They did nothing for decades and now are trying to catch up. They assumed if they didn't build it no one would come. But they came anyway.
US 71, US 183 and US 290 have or are being converted to freeways/toll roads. They buy up commercial property and expand. Its reinvigorated those areas.
What works in TX may not work here, but let's not forget that TX has frontage roads along most of their freeways. Buying up existing, tax-paying businesses may back fire and then you are left with a wide freeway and dead space.
GRS86 makes a good point about the Texas approach of upgrading existing major state-maintained surface/at-grade highways (federal and state highways) to limited-access highways.
cqholt makes some great comments and poses some excellent questions asking where the additional right-of-way to create new limited-access roadways would come from with existing major surface/at-grade highways lined with lots of tax revenue-generating parcels.
In regards to GRS86's idea of converting existing major surface/at-grade highways.....Converting existing major surface roads to limited-access highways may possibly be a viable idea for very-limited parts of (and targeted major at-grade junctions on) selected major surface commuter routes outside of the I-285 Perimeter.
Though because of metro Atlantans' and North Georgians' increasing general aversion to anything they view as being excessive roadbuilding, conversions of existing major surface commuter routes into full-scale controlled-access superhighways would likely be completely out of the question.....With the notable exception of Georgia Highway 316 which the Georgia Department of Transportation has plans to convert into a full-scale controlled-access superhighway between Lawrenceville and Athens.
Because of significant cultural differences between Georgia and Texas (a domineering and hard-core road construction-averse coalition of ITP/Intown Atlanta transit advocates, powerful suburban and exurban NIMBY's who want no new superhighways built near their OTP suburban/exurban paradises, and tenacious environmentalists who oppose any roadbuilding policy that could even remotely affect the heavily-wooded Appalachian foothills and mountain ranges north of the city in Georgia), large-scale road construction projects often are not received as well by the voting public in metro Atlanta and North Georgia (see the massive public backlash against the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc highway construction proposal and concept in the 2002 gubernatorial election and the 2012 T-SPLOST referendum) as they often are in and around the major population centers in the state of Texas.
I know that it sounds weird, especially for Texas natives who hail from an environment where large-scale road construction proposals often generate relatively very little public opposition and because of how the Atlanta metro region is compared directly to the Dallas and Houston metro regions because of their statuses as automobile-dominated large major metro regions in the Sunbelt, but Georgians (particularly metro Atlantans and North Georgians) often are not the most receptive to large-scale road construction projects very well.....That's despite the obvious severe lack of roadway infrastructure for an automobile-oriented metro region of Atlanta's size and population.
The (seemingly puzzling) general public aversion to large-scale road construction projects in North Georgia is one major reason why a large major metro region like Atlanta still has only one outer loop (the I-285 Perimeter) after about 50 years while comparable large major metro regions in Texas like Dallas and Houston have multiple outer loop highways that often feature tolls.
Texas lacks a statewide floodplain management plan, and does not participate (as a state) in the National Flood Insurance Program, despite the fact that Texas typically leads the nation in terms of dollars paid out for flood claims.
To me it seams people from the northeast mostly seem to tout toll roads because they are accustotmed to them. They exist, but are ot that common in the south so the suggestion sort of sounds like WT actual F are you talking about?
If we can somehow manage to afford high construction somewhere 365 days of every year, then we can get by without tolls.
To me it seams people from the northeast mostly seem to tout toll roads because they are accustotmed to them. They exist, but are ot that common in the south so the suggestion sort of sounds like WT actual F are you talking about?
You raise a good point that toll roads are not necessarily all that common throughout most of the Southern United States.
Though toll roads seem to be very common in the two very large Southern states of Texas and Florida (the 2nd and 3rd-most populous states in the union, respectively) to the point that tolled facilities in those highly-populated Southern states seem to be more common than even in the states that comprise the northeastern quadrant of the U.S. where tolled facilities were traditionally the most common early on in the post-World War II superhighway era.
Even the traditionally highly toll-averse Southern state of North Carolina (the 10th-most populous state overall and the 4th-most populous state in the South) has begun to embrace tolls as a means of completing the construction of a complex of ring roads around the state's capital city of Raleigh in the midst of an ongoing highway funding shortage.....While the traditionally highly toll-averse Southern state of Georgia has embraced the construction of toll lanes along existing superhighways as a means of creating additional road capacity in an environment where the public has seems to have soured on further freeway expansion through built-out heavily-developed areas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElleKaye
If we can somehow manage to afford high construction somewhere 365 days of every year, then we can get by without tolls.
With most superhighways in the U.S. being built and maintained without tolls during an era of massive highway network expansion over the last 60 years, it is understandable how many people could think that tolling is unnecessary and that we can continue to get by without tolls.
Though, the reality of the situation seems to be that existing highway construction/maintenance funds do not cover the full costs of construction and continuing maintenance of the highway network.....Costs which have been funded with heavy borrowing in light of incomplete revenue collections from existing road funding sources like non-inflation indexed state and federal motor fuel taxes.
We are continuing to see increasingly less of an appetite for heavy borrowing (particularly by hard-core fiscal conservatives) to pay the costs of constructing and maintaining the road network....A development which means that we are likely going to see a combination of increased state and federal motor fuel taxes and tolling if we are going to be able to maintain a viable road network moving forward.
There just is too little money from existing revenue streams (state and federal motor fuel taxes) and too much borrowing for us to continue to pretend that we can keep a viable road network with only partial revenue collections.
The era of pretending that roads are "free" (and the era of pretending that roads are fully funded from existing inadequate tax sources) seems to be approaching its end because of the unsustainability of continuing that approach (you can only borrow so much before the bill becomes due).
You raise a good point that toll roads are not necessarily all that common throughout most of the Southern United States.
Though toll roads seem to be very common in the two very large Southern states of Texas and Florida (the 2nd and 3rd-most populous states in the union, respectively) to the point that tolled facilities in those highly-populated Southern states seem to be more common than even in the states that comprise the northeastern quadrant of the U.S. where tolled facilities were traditionally the most common early on in the post-World War II superhighway era.
Even the traditionally highly toll-averse Southern state of North Carolina (the 10th-most populous state overall and the 4th-most populous state in the South) has begun to embrace tolls as a means of completing the construction of a complex of ring roads around the state's capital city of Raleigh in the midst of an ongoing highway funding shortage.....While the traditionally highly toll-averse Southern state of Georgia has embraced the construction of toll lanes along existing superhighways as a means of creating additional road capacity in an environment where the public has seems to have soured on further freeway expansion through built-out heavily-developed areas.
With most superhighways in the U.S. being built and maintained without tolls during an era of massive highway network expansion over the last 60 years, it is understandable how many people could think that tolling is unnecessary and that we can continue to get by without tolls.
Though, the reality of the situation seems to be that existing highway construction/maintenance funds do not cover the full costs of construction and continuing maintenance of the highway network.....Costs which have been funded with heavy borrowing in light of incomplete revenue collections from existing road funding sources like non-inflation indexed state and federal motor fuel taxes.
We are continuing to see increasingly less of an appetite for heavy borrowing (particularly by hard-core fiscal conservatives) to pay the costs of constructing and maintaining the road network....A development which means that we are likely going to see a combination of increased state and federal motor fuel taxes and tolling if we are going to be able to maintain a viable road network moving forward.
There just is too little money from existing revenue streams (state and federal motor fuel taxes) and too much borrowing for us to continue to pretend that we can keep a viable road network with only partial revenue collections.
The era of pretending that roads are "free" (and the era of pretending that roads are fully funded from existing inadequate tax sources) seems to be approaching its end because of the unsustainability of continuing that approach (you can only borrow so much before the bill becomes due).
Generally speaking the only places in the south with large number of tolls are places are places with no state income tax which are TX and FL. Outside of that few tolls exist in the south. And for all you northerners wanting tolls in Atlanta well we so dont that shlt here. And dont try to bring it here either. If you like toll roads so much move to Houston, Dallas, Orlando or Miami
Generally speaking the only places in the south with large number of tolls are places are places with no state income tax which are TX and FL. Outside of that few tolls exist in the south. And for all you northerners wanting tolls in Atlanta well we so dont that shlt here. And dont try to bring it here either. If you like toll roads so much move to Houston, Dallas, Orlando or Miami
I prefer I Atlanta. And we need more toll roads. They improve traffic and get people to better consider the true costs of how far away they live and their transportation choices.
I think like Japan, Georgia should have privatized toll roads as well as a privatized rail system. I'm confused because I thought Republicans favored a capitalistic system, or do they prefer government control over infrastructure?
Republicans are worse than Democrats when it comes to government control, because they say they want a free market system while in the same moment using every opportunity to weild government control wherever they see fit.
I prefer I Atlanta. And we need more toll roads. They improve traffic and get people to better consider the true costs of how far away they live and their transportation choices.
No tolls. Bring in heavy rail instead. Dont like heavy rail then just sit in traffic imo
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