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road construction proposals like the extension of I-675 north through Intown East Atlanta to GA 400 would be and are considered by many to be "fight-to-the-death" road construction proposals that many people around these would literally be willing to fight to the death to stop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadtrip75
Sounds like a win/win to me.
Not building this road is probably the single worst decision in the history of Atlanta on any issue.
If you are someone who has to commute on the often severely-congested I-75/I-85 Downtown Connector through Central Atlanta on a regular basis, it is very understandable how one could think that it was a big mistake for the State of Georgia to abandon its proposal to extend I-675 north to the I-85/GA 400 interchange through Intown East Atlanta as a means of attempting to relieve congestion on the I-75/I-85 Downtown Connector.
For many of those who have to contend with the severe traffic congestion on the I-75/I-85 Downtown Connector on a regular basis, not extending I-675 north through the city to meet with GA 400 at I-85 Northeast does seem like a bad decision.
But in the bigger picture of things, particularly when it comes to the quality-of-life of the city and the region as a whole, abandoning that highly-controversial road construction project appears to have been one of the best decisions that the State of Georgia ever made.....That's because many of the neighborhoods that were in the path of the proposed I-675 extension through Intown East Atlanta went on to become some of the best neighborhoods in both the city of Atlanta and the Atlanta region as a whole.
Neighborhoods that were slated to be directly adversely-affected by the construction of the I-675 extension like Poncey-Highland, Virginia-Highland, Morningside, Inman Park, Reynoldstown, North Ormewood Park, East Atlanta Village, Ormewood Park, etc, have gone on to become some of the most vibrant and most desirable urban neighborhoods in the city and the region since the abandonment and cancellation of that controversial road construction project.
The problem with the I-75/I-85 Downtown Connector is not that I-675 was never extended through Intown East Atlanta to take traffic off of the road. The problem with the I-75/I-85 Downtown Connector is that the Atlanta region has never really developed its regional high-capacity transit infrastructure as a means of giving commuters alternatives to having to sit in traffic while going through Central Atlanta on the Connector.
Atlanta's Upper Midwestern/Great Lakes rival and national peer city/metro of Chicago actually has a traffic problem with its main central north-south artery that is similar to Atlanta's struggles with its main central north-south artery.
Similar to how transcontinental superhighway routes Interstates 75 and 85 merge into one single roadway going through Central Atlanta (the often severely congested I-75/I-85 Downtown Connector), east-west transcontinental Interstate 90 and regional Interstate 94 merge onto one single major north-south roadway going Central Chicago.
The main difference between Atlanta and Chicago in dealing with the severely-congested major artery that goes through their city centers is that (in addition to having a good gridded surface arterial road network that provides multiple surface alternatives to the traffic nightmare that is often I-90/I-94 through Central Chicago) Chicago has an extensive regional/local high-capacity rail transit system (CTA Heavy Rail and Metra commuter rail) that commuters can utilize as a means of avoiding being stuck in traffic on their main central artery.
With a very poor surface road network (as other posters have noted) and a political inability to further expand the road network (particularly through ITP/Intown Atlanta), it is even more important that the Atlanta region (with the help of Georgia state government) fully develop its regional high-capacity transit infrastructure as a means of giving people alternatives to having to sit in traffic on severely-congested stretches of urban/metropolitan superhighways.
If you will remember, when Atlanta's I-75/I-85 Downtown Connector was reconstructed and widened back in the 1980's, it was considered to be one of the largest freeway reconstruction and widening projects ever executed at the time. The reconstruction and widening of the Downtown Connector was a critically-lauded project that (along with the presence of MARTA Heavy Rail Transit service) helped Atlanta land some massive events like multiple Super Bowls, multiple NCAA basketball Final Fours, SEC and ACC basketball tournaments, the 1996 Summer Olympics and the privilege of being the annual host of the SEC Football Championship Game.
(I think that the Georgia Department of Transportation even won some awards for the design and engineering of the reconstruction of the Downtown Connector back in the early 1990's after the project was completed.)
The problem was that Atlanta's berth as the host of the '96 Summer Olympics generated explosive population growth which generated explosive growth in the amount of traffic on the freeway system....A freeway system which is often heavily (if not severely) over-utilized in light of the lack of an adequate surface arterial road network AND the lack of an adequate regional/local high-capacity transit network.
We cannot bulldoze and pave our way to traffic congestion relief (particularly through heavily-developed and heavily-populated urban neighborhoods).....Road capacity-restricted, traffic-generating large major metro regions of 6 million-plus absolutely must have large extensive regional transit networks to supplement and complement their road networks. There's just no way around that reality....
I'm too a bit perplexed by the expense of underground lanes along I-85 north.
The long-term plans are to add an additional two lanes to the HOT lane network, at-grade. There will be some expensive parts of the project, but the potential to have the at-grade right of way exists.
B2R,
Many great points as always, but you've made a few assumptions you might want to be careful with too.
Ronald Reagan Pkwy was not originally built to go to I-85. It was conceived as a cheaper option than overhauling the arterial road network between Snelleville and the Gwinnett Place Mall area. Too many of the roads in the area were small and there weren't many direct routes either. Ronald Regan was designed to connect Snelleville to the once popular Gwinnett Place Mall area, as opposed to needing to upgrade many smaller roads in the area that was unpopular with area residents.
It is a very similar philosophy to the Sugarloaf freeway portions. It is sort of meant to be a cheaper freeway / super arterial, not a large freeway network.
It was after its success that people started wishing it went all the way to I-85.
The extension proposal wasn't that poorly received by the public at all. It only went away during the recession when private-funding potential dried up. Gwinnett pitched it as a public-private intiative and a private company was pitching the financing of the new segment, which it would use tolls on just the new segment. The recession made that not financially feasible.
Me personally, I believe they should extent to Beaver Ruin Rd. Most people traveling that far west aren't trying to go into town, but are trying to reach job centers spread out across Gwinnett's I-85 corridor or in North Fulton. Beaver Ruin would make it easier for people to get to Peachtree Corners and spread out I-85 bound traffic across multiple roadways.
If it actually went all the way to I-85 I suspect it would just become an overloaded freeway spur that would compete with its original purpose of acting as supplying a one-route catch all arterial road for that local area.
Those are great points about the purpose of Ronald Reagan Parkway.
But, from what I know, the original concept for the road that we now know to be Ronald Reagan Parkway was pushed in the 1980's by a developer (of course) who wanted to build a regional shopping mall in the area of where the GA 124/Scenic Highway retail strip is today north of Snellville. The developer wanted Gwinnett County to build a freeway that connected GA 124 north of Snellville (where he wanted to build his future regional shopping mall) to I-85 in Norcross so that he could generate traffic to his shopping mall-anchored real estate development.
From what I understand, the prospect of a freeway being built through the area was not warmly received by the residents of the area where the road was being proposed to go (according to many accounts the residents of the then-much more outer-suburban area thought that a freeway would adversely affect their peaceful residential area). But (like you noted) the county still saw the need for a roadway to connect the Pleasant Hill Road corridor and the then-much more popular Gwinnett Place Mall area with the Snellville area, so the county scaled-down the concept of the proposed roadway from the freeway connecting I-85 and GA 124 that the development interests wanted to a less-impactful parkway-type road that only connected Pleasant Hill and GA 124.
Also, if I recall correctly, Gwinnett County seemed to pull back from the plan to extend Ronald Reagan Parkway to I-85 as a toll road after the initial Gwinnett-based public uproar and backlash over the conversion of the HOV lanes to HOT lanes on I-85 in October 2011.....And the county seemed to back away even further from the plan to extend Ronald Reagan Parkway to I-85 as a toll road after the landslide defeat of the regional T-SPLOST referendum in July 2012 because of the role that the early backlash against the I-85 HOT lanes seemed to play in the defeat of the July 2012 T-SPLOST referendum.
Where are you getting that on US 78? I seem to read about every other month about a "traffic calming" project along the route. Snellville seems intent on making it like Ponce de Leon in downtown Decatur. For much of the metro, its the best way to Athens, but they are slowly making it more difficult to get through.
When they took out the reversible lanes they added a median, controlled where left turns happen, removed curb cuts over several streches, promoted some interparcel access, created roads parrallel, like the one near Yellow driver going east towards Ross Rd.
They are planning more parallel connector roads, partly spearheaded by Evermore. This will happen near Hewatt to Britt.
Snelleville/GDOT and trying to get funding for a new intersection at 124 and 78 that increases capacity.
When they re-do that interchange they will buy many lots north of US78 and remove the curb cuts in the process.
Redeveloped lots will face new zoning that affects how the curb cuts works.
Those are great points about the purpose of Ronald Reagan Parkway.
But, from what I know, the original concept for the road that we now know to be Ronald Reagan Parkway was pushed in the 1980's by a developer (of course) who wanted to build a regional shopping mall in the area of where the GA 124/Scenic Highway retail strip is today north of Snellville. The developer wanted Gwinnett County to build a freeway that connected GA 124 north of Snellville (where he wanted to build his future regional shopping mall) to I-85 in Norcross so that he could generate traffic to his shopping mall-anchored real estate development.
From what I understand, the prospect of a freeway being built through the area was not warmly received by the residents of the area where the road was being proposed to go (according to many accounts the residents of the then-much more outer-suburban area thought that a freeway would adversely affect their peaceful residential area). But (like you noted) the county still saw the need for a roadway to connect the Pleasant Hill Road corridor and the then-much more popular Gwinnett Place Mall area with the Snellville area, so the county scaled-down the concept of the proposed roadway from the freeway connecting I-85 and GA 124 that the development interests wanted to a less-impactful parkway-type road that only connected Pleasant Hill and GA 124.
Also, if I recall correctly, Gwinnett County seemed to pull back from the plan to extend Ronald Reagan Parkway to I-85 as a toll road after the initial Gwinnett-based public uproar and backlash over the conversion of the HOV lanes to HOT lanes on I-85 in October 2011.....And the county seemed to back away even further from the plan to extend Ronald Reagan Parkway to I-85 as a toll road after the landslide defeat of the regional T-SPLOST referendum in July 2012 because of the role that the early backlash against the I-85 HOT lanes seemed to play in the defeat of the July 2012 T-SPLOST referendum.
They never pulled back, not the county.
It was the private group pitching the project that pulled the plug. There was no way to fund it and the county was cash-strapped. It was the recession.
There were no public uproars. The complains were minor during the phase.
The original was built to most supporting it.
The county never built RRP for a developer. It was to connect Snelleville. Many of the meandering roads, like Oak were pretty backed up and they need to restructure the arterial roads in the area and this was a one-size-fits-all plan. Much of it was from public demand to get to the mall (Gwinnett Place) at the time.
It was the private group pitching the project that pulled the plug. There was no way to fund it and the county was cash-strapped. It was the recession.
There were no public uproars. The complains were minor during the phase.
The original was built to most supporting it.
I don't recall there necessarily being an uproar or an outrage over the proposal to extend Ronald Reagan Parkway from Pleasant Hill to I-85. I just recall the project not seeming to poll very well in the Gwinnett Daily Post and I recall there just not being much public support for the plan for various reasons (a high public aversion to tolls at the time, public dissatisfaction with the previous Gwinnett Board of Commissioners over repeated ethical lapses, concerns about the effects that the road would have on the now majority-minority neighborhoods in the path of the road, the public seeing the road as being not totally necessary, etc).
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwkimbro
The county never built RRP for a developer. It was to connect Snelleville. Many of the meandering roads, like Oak were pretty backed up and they need to restructure the arterial roads in the area and this was a one-size-fits-all plan. Much of it was from public demand to get to the mall (Gwinnett Place) at the time.
Well the county did not build RRP for a developer, but some accounts seem to indicate that it was a real estate developer who may have initially pushed the idea of the road as a freeway to bring traffic from I-85 to a proposed mall in Snellville back in the 1980's.
In addition to the idea of a freeway being built through the corridor that is now RRP not being warmly received by the residents in the area, I think that an economic downturn in real estate in the late '80's-early '90's may have also played a role in the current road being built as a parkway and not a full-fledged freeway as the developer was likely financially forced to back away from the plan to build a regional shopping mall.
Though, like you have noted, the county seemed to recognize on its own that there was a need for more direct connectivity between Snellville and the Gwinnett Place Mall area, so the county built RRP (as a parkway) to provide that more-direct connectivity.
Agreed on the lack of arterial roads. In my opinion, that's a much bigger problem than freeway capacity; a lot of the congestion I've seen has come from outdated interchanges, narrow arterial roads, and crummy merging, not necessarily freeway length. I'd be much happier with a plan to widen local roads (where expansion is needed) and retrofit outdated interchanges than widen 14-lane freeways.
As for highway lighting, that's (unfortunately) not GDOT's responsibility. Penny-pinching cities and counties have to spring for lights and pay for their upkeep.
- skbl17
One other thing Atlanta does is all these "5 point" interchanges. Most urban areas have reduced these to 4 way intersections. North Decatur at Scott Street at Medlock next to the new Walmart is the worst. That was bad before the Walmart. North Decatur also has another lower volume one at Oxford and Dowman.
Agreed on the lack of arterial roads. In my opinion, that's a much bigger problem than freeway capacity; a lot of the congestion I've seen has come from outdated interchanges, narrow arterial roads, and crummy merging, not necessarily freeway length. I'd be much happier with a plan to widen local roads (where expansion is needed) and retrofit outdated interchanges than widen 14-lane freeways.
As for highway lighting, that's (unfortunately) not GDOT's responsibility. Penny-pinching cities and counties have to spring for lights and pay for their upkeep.
- skbl17
It does tie together. Because Atlanta combined 75 and 85 through the city and decided not to complete its freeway system, it has fairly limited freeway options inside 285 forcing more traffic onto inadequate arterials for longer distances and creating more congested interchanges where those roads do intersect with the freeway (Sidney Marcus/Lennox at 400 and 85 is particularly notorious)
It does tie together. Because Atlanta combined 75 and 85 through the city and decided not to complete its freeway system, it has fairly limited freeway options inside 285 forcing more traffic onto inadequate arterials for longer distances and creating more congested interchanges where those roads do intersect with the freeway (Sidney Marcus/Lennox at 400 and 85 is particularly notorious)
That is an excellent point about the inadequate surface arterial and the limited freeway system tying together to create an inadequate regional road network as a whole by a road construction-averse public.
Though Atlanta did not decide to not complete its freeway system so much as it (the State of Georgia) was forced to abandon its plans to build a more extensive freeway system.
The State of Georgia was basically politically prevented from building a larger regional network of freeways by a robust coalition of activists (extremely protective Intown urban neighborhood activists and environmental activists), libertarian rural/exurban landowners (who wanted to retain the right to sell their land to the highest bidders) and suburban/exurban NIMBYs (who did not want new freeways to be built near their outer-suburban and exurban neighborhoods).
Unlike in a state like Texas where planning for future roads and suburban/exurban development may take place decades in advance (particularly in and around the Dallas and Houston metro regions), in Georgia roads and suburban/exurban development most often takes place in a much more speculative (and seemingly haphazard) fashion with little (if any) regard to how such heavy development may adversely affect the inadequate road network.
In Texas, road planning often seems to take place under the mantra "build it because they are coming" while in Georgia, what limited road planning there may be often seems to be executed under the mantra "build it and they will come".....Two totally different approaches to road construction and development in two large automobile-oriented Sunbelt states.
It does tie together. Because Atlanta combined 75 and 85 through the city and decided not to complete its freeway system, it has fairly limited freeway options inside 285 forcing more traffic onto inadequate arterials for longer distances and creating more congested interchanges where those roads do intersect with the freeway (Sidney Marcus/Lennox at 400 and 85 is particularly notorious)
Beats wiping out Morningside, Virginia-Highland, and Inman Park.
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