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I don't think Atlanta will ever have the kind of pavement most cities its size have. We were built on a different model and at this point there's no way to fit in major new roads.
It probably is too late. Lack of foresight. Here in DFW the two new tollroads that have been built in the last couple of decades.... Bush and 121.... the plans were already in place years before they were built. I saw this in effect, the developers set their shopping centers and subdivisions well off the original 121 as the access roads and main lanes had been plotted in years before.
Too many points to quote here, so will just jump in.
Born, your comparison of US 380 to GA 20 is pretty spot on.... but in DFW you have two major east/west toll roads between it and 635, DFWs equivalent of 285. There is nothing like this between 20 and 285. Not to mention major 6 lane arterials running east/west north of 635 that make moving east to west in the northern burbs much easier. I can think of a dozen in that space north of 635, can only think of GA 120 and 92 that would be similar multi laned east/west arterials in the same space in Atlanta. Both cities have developed to the north in similar fashion.
I would still say that every population estimate since the last census has DFW outgaining Atlanta, so while Atlanta is getting back to pre recession growth, it still is short of DFW. I say the poor shape of moving around the northern burbs is one of the main reasons and will continue to hamper Atlanta. That a major metro area of 5million plus still has the same overall freeway footprint it did when it was just over 1 million is incredulous. The argument that these roads brought sprawl and that supplementing the footprint would only drive more sprawl... well that is tired. The northern burbs sprawled anyway.
There. 2 more cents from Saintmarks.
I was going to post something along these lines but I was too busy to join the fray.
It's almost comical. DFW (and Houston) definitely sprawled, but they sprawled less and it's actually due to building more major roads than Atlanta. In Plano you can drive on say, Custer Rd, and cross a major E-W 6 lane road every mile or so. And same in the other direction. 6 lane N-S roads every mile or so. Then throw in 635, PGBT, SRT and you have 3 E-W highways to cross the northern burbs. In Atlanta, between 85 and 75 you only have GA 400. Northern burbs of Dallas have US 75 and the North Tollway between 35E and 30. They have more corridors which have attracted the development. Same thing in Atlanta. Lot of jobs along 75 in Cobb, lot of jobs along 400 in N Fulton and even along 85 in Gwinnett (and a tiny bit along PIB). With one fewer corridor and only one 285, the corridors have been forced to expand outward on into Forsyth County. Because DFW has many more corridors, they've been able to keep expansion more compact.
It probably is too late. Lack of foresight. Here in DFW the two new tollroads that have been built in the last couple of decades.... Bush and 121.... the plans were already in place years before they were built. I saw this in effect, the developers set their shopping centers and subdivisions well off the original 121 as the access roads and main lanes had been plotted in years before.
Yes. I have the feeling people didn't expect Atlanta to get so big, whereas folks in Dallas were thinking big way back when.
I was going to post something along these lines but I was too busy to join the fray.
It's almost comical. DFW (and Houston) definitely sprawled, but they sprawled less and it's actually due to building more major roads than Atlanta. In Plano you can drive on say, Custer Rd, and cross a major E-W 6 lane road every mile or so. And same in the other direction. 6 lane N-S roads every mile or so. Then throw in 635, PGBT, SRT and you have 3 E-W highways to cross the northern burbs. In Atlanta, between 85 and 75 you only have GA 400. Northern burbs of Dallas have US 75 and the North Tollway between 35E and 30. They have more corridors which have attracted the development. Same thing in Atlanta. Lot of jobs along 75 in Cobb, lot of jobs along 400 in N Fulton and even along 85 in Gwinnett (and a tiny bit along PIB). With one fewer corridor and only one 285, the corridors have been forced to expand outward on into Forsyth County. Because DFW has many more corridors, they've been able to keep expansion more compact.
Just to support that idea, I have linked the city of Houston's major thoroughfare plan. It demonstrates the dense grid network and planning. You will see a few gaps due to suburbs completely surrounded by Houston's jurisdiction (Jersey Village in the northwest, Humble in the northeast, Galena Park in the east, the Memorial Villages in the west and Bellaire/West U/Southside in the Southwest near Loop 610).
That's great, but let's put aside theory for one second. If we could take a large chunk of the interstate freight traffic off of I-285 and the sections of our interstates closest to Atlanta and the immediate north suburbs, then that would free up that existing road space for cars, reducing congestion/adding capacity. Not new cars, but the cars that already regularly are using it.
285 is no longer the Atlanta bypass that it originally was. It goes right through some of the most populated and some of the most economically active areas of the metro.
50 years later, we need a new bypass to take long-distance trucks off the top end. Maybe put special anti-sprawl rules attached to it, such as trucks-only, or toll-only, or minimal local exits, etc.
Agreed. The longer the state of Georgia keeps putting off the Northern Arc--hell, the entire outer loop--the worse it's going to be if they ever get around to building it. Personally I think the thing should be as far north as Ball Ground, Dawsonville, Gainesville, and the like.
Too many points to quote here, so will just jump in.
Born, your comparison of US 380 to GA 20 is pretty spot on.... but in DFW you have two major east/west toll roads between it and 635, DFWs equivalent of 285. There is nothing like this between 20 and 285. Not to mention major 6 lane arterials running east/west north of 635 that make moving east to west in the northern burbs much easier. I can think of a dozen in that space north of 635, can only think of GA 120 and 92 that would be similar multi laned east/west arterials in the same space in Atlanta. Both cities have developed to the north in similar fashion.
I would still say that every population estimate since the last census has DFW outgaining Atlanta, so while Atlanta is getting back to pre recession growth, it still is short of DFW. I say the poor shape of moving around the northern burbs is one of the main reasons and will continue to hamper Atlanta. That a major metro area of 5million plus still has the same overall freeway footprint it did when it was just over 1 million is incredulous. The argument that these roads brought sprawl and that supplementing the footprint would only drive more sprawl... well that is tired. The northern burbs sprawled anyway.
There. 2 more cents from Saintmarks.
There serveral points i got to respond to first to
First off the reason DFW has built more freeway is because DFW has had more land to do so, DFW is a Grid this gave DFW more areas to put aside for freeways and etc. where in Atlanta not being a grid would required more neighborhood being razed.
Second off your argument is old tired argument the 50s to the 90s metropolitan leaders and urban planners were pro sprawl and roads. The Fucos from sprawl and not building is something that came about recent during the early 2000s
Again develop react to transportion historically cities where build by water for a reason. Then came the railroad that created cities like Atlanta, streetcars created early suburbs and the interstate system created sprawl we know post 50s
The reason I posted the DFW pics to show how development in DFW directly follows the grid. Where the wide roads and grid stop develop stops once the infrastructure is bad development stops. The reason Atlanta sprawls more than DFW is because developers in Atlanta would build bad infrastructure that developers in DFW wouldn't. Because Atlanta is not a grid developers pretty much thrown the idea that infrastructure too bad to here out the window.
No they have not develop to the north in a similar fashion. One is a grid and the other sprawl further north which makes it an apples to oranges comparison. Comparing Mckinnely tx to Cumming ga is off because cumming is futher out. Where in DFW the area would be rual and undeveloped. Apharetta would be a better comparison and would make sense to expand roads. Cumming further out than any develop in DFW. the point is DFW is not even that far out yet as Atlanta northern suburbs. If Atlanta focus on the same radius as DFW Atlanta wouldn't be widening roads that far north.
Metro Atlanta focus should be where the population is and where it's growing the most. Which is the core and the first and second ring suburbs. Not trying subsidized the exurbs.
DFW is following in the foot steps of LA
Atlanta can't do that it's not a grid. Atlanta has to look at cities like D.C. And Boston as models.
It probably is too late. Lack of foresight. Here in DFW the two new tollroads that have been built in the last couple of decades.... Bush and 121.... the plans were already in place years before they were built. I saw this in effect, the developers set their shopping centers and subdivisions well off the original 121 as the access roads and main lanes had been plotted in years before.
Atlanta environmental is different from the other big sunbelt cities Atlanta is too forested and hilly to build the grid network of Texas cities.
Also there more Balkanization in metro Atlanta because of the smaller counties.
Also your speaking as if all major cities just have freeways ever where. This why I keep menting D.C. And Boston. They don't have the freeways or the grid network as Texas cities. There more stuff going on with TOD.
One thing I notice is that the ARC is more pro urban growth than tx cities regional plan organizations. Texas cities have urban projects but nothing in the scale of the ARC 2040 plan.
I would still say that every population estimate since the last census has DFW outgaining Atlanta, so while Atlanta is getting back to pre recession growth, it still is short of DFW. I say the poor shape of moving around the northern burbs is one of the main reasons and will continue to hamper Atlanta. That a major metro area of 5million plus still has the same overall freeway footprint it did when it was just over 1 million is incredulous. The argument that these roads brought sprawl and that supplementing the footprint would only drive more sprawl... well that is tired. The northern burbs sprawled anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aries4118
Are y'all saying that Atlanta will just be perpetually lagging behind Dallas and Houston?
Brother Marks--Is Dallas just better than Atlanta?
Statistically, Atlanta may lag behind Dallas and Houston in numerical measurements of employment and population.
But statistics are not necessarily the only way to measure a city/metro's economic and psychological well-being, success and the public's perception of how successful a city/metro is.
No one is disputing the statistics that show the higher employment and population numbers of Dallas and Houston.
I'm just saying that it may misguided to assume that Atlanta is struggling or being dominated economically because its economic and population stats are not as high as Dallas and Houston.
With such major success stories as the construction of Mercedes-Benz Stadium, the construction of SunTrust Park, the redevelopment of the Turner Field area (a redevelopment that includes the expansion of Georgia State University south of Downtown and I-20), the acquisition of a Major League Soccer team (Atlanta United), the continued expansion of the Atlanta tech industry, the continued expansion of the Port of Savannah, the continued domination of Atlanta's Hip-Hop music scene, the city retaining and being awarded the rights to host massive major sporting events (like the SEC Championship Game, the NCAA Final Four, the Super Bowl and the NCAA College Football national playoff and championship games), the continued growth of urban and suburban living, the hot real estate market and (especially) the exploding television and film production scene...it does not feel like Atlanta is being economically dominated by city/metros like Dallas and Houston. It feels like Atlanta is more than holding its own amongst ultra-highly competitive Texas Sunbelt large major metros like Dallas and Houston.
At this point in time it does not feel that Atlantans should have much of anything to feel inadequate about when it comes to other large major metropolitan areas.
Of course, Atlanta has room for improvement like most any other large major metro area. But Atlanta has so much going for it right now that it has little to be ashamed of and seems to be the envy of many other metro areas, particularly when it comes to Atlanta's extremely (if not exceptionally) robust entertainment and sports convention scenes.
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