Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
How much have rents gone down in Midtown with the explosion of density?
Rents in these mid-rises & high-rises are a lot lower than the single family homes that are still in the area. That extra density has helped affordability a great deal. Rents in Midtown are down 4.4% thanks to all these new units coming on line: Atlanta rents flattening out: are they going to drop?
Decatur is another good example. They have seen huge population density growth but have been downsizing their streets at the same time.
Besides the one main road which they reduced many years ago, what other roads have they downsized in Decatur recently?
As a side note...I just found out that they've changed Google Earth to the worst version ever with no time history, making researching such things more difficult.
Quote:
More density and smaller streets are the key to reducing traffic volumes.
Unless you build all that density but don't have all the jobs right there, too. Or a functional widespread transit system to get people around. Simply adding density and removing lanes is not a solution to anything. In fact, it's far worse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh
Rents in these mid-rises & high-rises are a lot lower than the single family homes that are still in the area.
Wow. Great point. Next, you'll tell me that a bottle of Grey Goose costs more than a can of Natural Light.
This article is weird. First, it says "A burst of building has brought the Atlanta rental market to a tipping point, possibly tilting rents lower in the next few months, according to analysis by a national apartment data firm." then it says that rents have gone down almost everywhere. Even the title of the article is "are they going to drop". So, have they gone down, or are they about to go down? Also, the link in the article doesn't provide any actual info. It's just a link to that company.
On the other hand, this site shows rents in Atlanta going up somewhat over the past several years, going down only a smudge in the last few months. Yet, apartment and condo buildings have been going up for years and years. Let's see if the downward trend continues. Hopefully so.
Also, 4.4% is not "a great deal". That's a reduction from $1,500 to $1,434. That's not changing affordability.
Besides the one main road which they reduced many years ago, what other roads have they downsized in Decatur recently?
Ponce, North McDonough Road, Commerce Drive...
Four or more lane roads are almost extinct in downtown Decatur.
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas1
Unless you build all that density but don't have all the jobs right there, too. Or a functional widespread transit system to get people around. Simply adding density and removing lanes is not a solution to anything. In fact, it's far worse.
Too bad Brookhaven doesn't have a MARTA station to center it's density around like Decatur, wait...
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas1
Wow. Great point. Next, you'll tell me that a bottle of Grey Goose costs more than a can of Natural Light.
Yep, legalizing Natural Light / density / affordable housing is a key part of the solution. We can't keep 90%+ of the land zoned for single family homes / Grey Goose and complain about affordability.
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas1
Also, 4.4% is not "a great deal". That's a reduction from $1,500 to $1,434. That's not changing affordability.
For a six month period that is pretty huge in housing.
Rents in these mid-rises & high-rises are a lot lower than the single family homes that are still in the area. That extra density has helped affordability a great deal.
I seriously doubt that living in a Midtown highrise is much more affordable (if at all) than living in a single family home. A 2/2 in a Midtown highrise starts at half a million, and quickly goes up from there. If you're thinking of something like a 3/3, count on spending at least a million dollars.
I seriously doubt that living in a Midtown highrise is much more affordable (if at all) than living in a single family home. A 2/2 in a Midtown highrise starts at half a million, and quickly goes up from there. If you're thinking of something like a 3/3, count on spending at least a million dollars.
My brand new two bedroom Midtown condo was under $200k. It recently resold for $300k but still, that is far, far more affordable than any SFH in Midtown. You are going to be paying at least double that, but probably well north of a million for a SFH there.
Density is cheaper by design. We need to stop making it illegal so many places. Take a house, split it in half (duplex), and you have almost halved your costs. That should be legal everywhere.
Four or more lane roads are almost extinct in downtown Decatur.
Ponce hasn't been a four-lane through road in decades. Commerce is still four-lane almost the entire way around decatur, unless they've redone it in the last couple of months. I se that they are currently redoing North McDonough, but it's not even a through road, so being four lane is pointless anyway.
Quote:
Too bad Brookhaven doesn't have a MARTA station to center it's density around like Decatur, wait...
Yes. That one area. God, you are so fun. You cannot have a city full of highly dense development unless you have a functional way to get those people around. Our small coverage of MARTA rail won't cut it, and busses are only part of the solution. Try paying attention to the actual point.
Quote:
Yep, legalizing Natural Light / density / affordable housing is a key part of the solution. We can't keep 90%+ of the land zoned for single family homes / Grey Goose and complain about affordability.
90%? Yet...you keep pointing to high-density SFH as examples. Remember that Australian suburb you referenced about 13,000 times?
Quote:
For a six month period that is pretty huge in housing.
It's also a blip...not a trend. Yet. Just because Donald Trump's approval rating has gone up at points doesn't mean it's going up or that he's more popular now than before.
Ponce hasn't been a four-lane through road in decades. Commerce is still four-lane almost the entire way around decatur, unless they've redone it in the last couple of months. I se that they are currently redoing North McDonough, but it's not even a through road, so being four lane is pointless anyway.
You know it is funny, according to many on this forum Decatur should be drowning in traffic. They never allowed the highway to be built (Stone Mountain Freeway into downtown) that would have let all those people "bypass the area". None of the roads in the city were ever significantly widened in recent decades, in fact many were reduced, and the city has packed on density. Yet traffic actually improved in Decatur over the years.
However, there is no real uproar around here about how "Decatur can't support more density" like there is when we talk about Brookhaven and their seven lane roads and two parallel freeways.
It's almost like these wider roadways are the problem and merely funnel more traffic in. Like they are somehow inducing the demand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas1
Yes. That one area. God, you are so fun. You cannot have a city full of highly dense development unless you have a functional way to get those people around. Our small coverage of MARTA rail won't cut it, and busses are only part of the solution. Try paying attention to the actual point.
Can we at least agree if density was going to be allowed in one place in Brookhaven, it should have been this TOD, yes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas1
90%? Yet...you keep pointing to high-density SFH as examples. Remember that Australian suburb you referenced about 13,000 times?
That's right. Even that 90% of land our for SFH is still limited to low density SFH.
My brand new two bedroom Midtown condo was under $200k. It recently resold for $300k but still, that is far, far more affordable than any SFH in Midtown. You are going to be paying at least double that, but probably well north of a million for a SFH there.
Density is cheaper by design. We need to stop making it illegal so many places. Take a house, split it in half (duplex), and you have almost halved your costs. That should be legal everywhere.
A condo is also not a SFH, by any stretch, and should not cost even a fraction as much. Not even worth comparing. Yes, it is cheaper...because you don't get nearly the same thing.
So, what you're saying is that nothing has been done yet, so your example was not actually an example. What you are also saying, as per your sourced article, is that Commerce redo has some pretty heavy opposition, but they're doing it anyway. But, that's fine. Decatur itself is also not a pass-through town, so it doesn't have any real need for large roads going through. Anyone commuting past it would use Howard or College to the south, which between them is 6 lanes each way for the most part (then merge into four divided lanes), or use Scott Blvd to the north which is four lanes.
Quote:
You know it is funny, according to many on this forum Decatur should be drowning in traffic. They never allowed the highway to be built (Stone Mountain Freeway into downtown) that would have let all those people "bypass the area". None of the roads in the city were ever significantly widened in recent decades, in fact many were reduced, and the city has packed on density. Yet traffic actually improved in many parts of Decatur over the years.
The density of Decatur is approximately 4,600 PSM. That's not packed, and is just a little more than Atlanta, which includes many completely unused areas. Decatur should not be drowning in traffic because it has multiple ways around and out of it, only one through road east/west, barely a good north/south through road, and thus only people with a destination of Decatur should really be in there. Also, the area to the west of Decatur isn't exactly high density, so it's downtown isn't a route.
Quote:
However, there is no real uproar around here about how "Decatur can't support more density" like there is when we talk about Brookhaven and their seven lane roads and two parallel freeways.
I never said that. However, 400 is useful to Brookhaven only through the most congested part of Buckhead. That's the only entrance to 400. Not exactly a selling point. I can't find a 7-lane road through Brookhaven. I'm sure you'll come back with a right-turn lane counting as a lane, though.
That being said...Brookhaven is a fine place to densify. Take that gigantic MARTA parking lot and make it a 35-story building with all 200-square foot condos. But, good look getting the SFH residents to give up their homes for anything. Maybe tell those golfers that their club needs to go. I'm sure they'll be on board.
Quote:
It's almost like these wider roadways are the problem and merely funnel more traffic in.
People have to get places. Either have some wide roads where they can go, OR have a viable transit system, OR have people driving through your neighborhood. Pick one. Either way, Atlanta's arterial road system is abysmal with terribly timed traffic lights. It's no wonder traffic is bad in parts.
Quote:
Can we at least agree if density was going to be allowed in one place in Brookhaven, it should have been this TOD, yes?
Absolutely. I've never disagreed with such things. Although I have no idea what TOD you're talking about. There's also massive availability on the south side for transit development. MASSIVE.
Quote:
That's right. Even that 90% of land our for SFH is still limited to low density SFH.
Source needed! I see a lot of land labeled as mixed-use, multi-family, and industrial (much of which is abandoned). A lot of other parts are R4 or R5, which are not low-density (except in uber-fabric minds).
The density of Decatur is approximately 4,600 PSM. That's not packed, and is just a little more than Atlanta, which includes many completely unused areas. Decatur should not be drowning in traffic because it has multiple ways around and out of it, only one through road east/west, barely a good north/south through road, and thus only people with a destination of Decatur should really be in there. Also, the area to the west of Decatur isn't exactly high density, so it's downtown isn't a route.
I never said that. However, 400 is useful to Brookhaven only through the most congested part of Buckhead. That's the only entrance to 400. Not exactly a selling point. I can't find a 7-lane road through Brookhaven. I'm sure you'll come back with a right-turn lane counting as a lane, though.
Brookhaven in the census tracts near the MARTA station (which I assume is what we're talking about) is about the same density as the city of Decatur.
The diff is that Decatur was designed as a city, with a grid, arterials and a bypass. Brookhaven in this area sort of emerged out of the single family neighborhoods. This area also has a hard boundary to the north -- i.e., the railroad tracks and MARTA -- so travelers are funneled onto Dresden and NDH.
I am not sure why anyone would advocate density as a solution to affordable housing. The most expensive cities in the US are also the most dense. Building huge skyscrapers and packing in as many people as possible in a small area may increase supply, but it also means more businesses and restaraunts in the area to cater to the increased population, which increases desirability of an area, which then leads to less affordable housing in the long run.
Look at Midtown. It has become incredibly dense over the last few years, which has done nothing but cause a rapid increase in services, restaraunts, high income residents, and increased prices.
The cheapest areas of the country are the least dense because no one wants to live there due to lack of amenities.
Also, Decatur traffic is the worst I encounter in the metro. Sometimes it takes me 20+ minutes to go one mile, especially on Clairmont.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
