Has anyone's opinion on an Outer Perimeter / Outer Bypass changed? (Atlanta: credit, lawyers)

[primaltech]

Originally Posted by cparker73

If an outer perimeter was ever built, it needs to be done in a way to limit exits once every 30 miles or so the way the Florida Turnpike is done with rest stops and gas stations built in the median to limit the impact on the road would have on rural communities that want to retain their small-town character.

Yeah, that would be the right way to do it. A true bypass wouldn't need local exits to speak of. The exits would be the interstates and major parkways it connects with, where you would have local exits from there.

Georgia needs a true outer ring bypass freeway, just 3 freeway lanes each direction, looping around the north half of the state, basically.

Starting from I-75 around Calhoun, heading clockwise, would just have exits at I-575, GA-400, I-985 north of the lake, Athens Perimeter/ US-78, I-20, I-75 a little bit north of Macon, I-85 near LaGrange, I-20 near the Alabama border, then back to I-75. With gas stations and and rest stops built between those exits, in the median.

That would be a freeway just for getting places, and vehicles passing thru bypassing Metro Atlanta, rather than built to support suburbs and sprawl.

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by toll_booth

I've shifted from thinking we need a full outer loop to a 3/4 loop, excluding the north side. Too many mountains and exurban growth up there through which to carve a brand new freeway, which require pretty wide ROWs and much smoother grading than the actual terrain up there.

I just wanted to re-mention this idea into the discussion again.

In terms of commuter flows, people really want a Northern Arc.

However, in terms of freight flows, this is what is still feasible in greenfield developments.

The largest freight flows go from I-75 on the Southside to I-75 and I-85 on the northside and it is through these interstate junctions on I-285 where we always have highly ranked freight bottle necks.

4 of the country's top 15 freight bottle necks are on this U-route.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by cwkimbro

I just wanted to re-mention this idea into the discussion again.

In terms of commuter flows, people really want a Northern Arc.

However, in terms of freight flows, this is what is still feasible in greenfield developments.

The largest freight flows go from I-75 on the Southside to I-75 and I-85 on the northside and it is through these interstate junctions on I-285 where we always have highly ranked freight bottle necks.

4 of the country's top 15 freight bottle necks are on this U-route.

I've said that we desperately need a western bypass and an eastern bypass. The northern arc is just for commuters and many of those people don't want it, so I'm fine with them sitting forever in their traffic. For the overall metro, its the eastern and western bypasses that are important.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by cparker73

If an outer perimeter was ever built, it needs to be done in a way to limit exits once every 30 miles or so the way the Florida Turnpike is done with rest stops and gas stations built in the median to limit the impact on the road would have on rural communities that want to retain their small-town character.

So that the people who live there can't use it?

I've heard others echo that thought, but I think it is absolutely horrible.

To improve flow, not having exits every mile would be a good idea, but you need them every 2 to 5 miles.

If they want to maintain their small town character, they have this tool called zoning. Its why I think the best route for a Northern bypass would be through Milton. They would stop extreme development.

[primaltech]

If you build it out far enough, most of the route wouldn't even have enough population to support local exits. It's a lot of farmland and very low density rural.

Maybe you'd have more than the ones I mentioned above, but the exits should definitely be limited to the US interstates and US highways. (400 is US highway 19).

So starting at the west wall, you'd have an exit at I-20 on the outside of Bremen, US-278 near Cedartown, US-411 near Rome, I-75 near Calhoun, US-411 east of Calhoun, I-575 (would be extended), US-19, US-23, I-85, US-29/Athens, and then I-20 on the east wall.

So that's about 11 exits for the north half of the loop. Any more than that would create even more exurban sprawl development, which the region absolutely does not need.

[demonta4]

GDOT can go **** themselves for ruining rail to Alpharetta and not building the Macon line when they had the funding for it. Personally, if someone wants to continue moving into the endless sprawl knowing there are no freeways up there, that's their choice. I don't have sympathy for people sitting in traffic after rejecting rail so many times. You can't fix congestion by encouraging more traffic. You need more than one option to get around than driving.

[architect77]

Originally Posted by primaltech

If you build it out far enough, most of the route wouldn't even have enough population to support local exits. It's a lot of farmland and very low density rural.

Maybe you'd have more than the ones I mentioned above, but the exits should definitely be limited to the US interstates and US highways. (400 is US highway 19).

So starting at the west wall, you'd have an exit at I-20 on the outside of Bremen, US-278 near Cedartown, US-411 near Rome, I-75 near Calhoun, US-411 east of Calhoun, I-575 (would be extended), US-19, US-23, I-85, US-29/Athens, and then I-20 on the east wall.

So that's about 11 exits for the north half of the loop. Any more than that would create even more exurban sprawl development, which the region absolutely does not need.

I agree that an outer perimeter at this point would have little local effectiveness as its diameter would be so large. Even I-285's diameter is large enough that it isn't helpful for many people's short trips.

It would be helpful to divert I-75's Florida travelers completely away from metro traffic with a bypass along the Alabama border though.

Also a new East-West alternative to Top End I-285 would have been nice but that ship has sailed.

A truck-only connector from I-85 to I-75 North of Atlanta would be nice to get Southeast state-to-state traffic off I-285's Top End.

BUT I disagree with the SPRAWL assertion. Loops corral development to remain equidistant from downtown. They guide development around a city's core.

Atlanta is the poster child for sprawl from NOT building more loop-like highways. As a result developers keep buying land further out I-85, I-75.

In the early 90's Gwinnett Place mall was the outer edge of development. Since then it has expanded first to Mall of Georgia area, and now has literallly almost met the town of Commerce.

Forsyth developed with more affordable homes that have lured buyers from the entire country. A Northern Arc would have helped them tremendously without causing sprawl, but that didn't happen.

[architect77]

Originally Posted by Prickly Pear

Yeah as a woman here in Georgia I’d rather just… not… and focus on something like infrastructure.

I’d say the perimeter is no longer an effective truck bypass. I personally would be ok with a new perimeter if it was tolled for personal cars and not tolled for semis. Anything that isn’t a licensed semi (or emergency vehicle) gets charged a fee to cover maintenance. That should limit any potential sprawl issue (again limit) while getting semis off of urban freeways. I’ve never seen as many as I do here in core areas. To be honest separating the semis and cars would get rid of a lot of Atlanta’s traffic issues rather than sheer personal car volume like I’ve seen in other cities.

I am pro public transit but I’m not necessarily anti car or freeway, as long as they are paying the full expense of their use and no subsidies. Freeways are ridiculously subsidized and in order to keep them nice governments have to pull from budgets that can go to things like teacher pay or police reform. Tolls work to bridge this gap.

Freeways don't cost s lot themselves per say, and they support so many related industries that it's probably 1/3 of the entire economy.

Indirectly everyone benefits because roads bring food and products to stores and your home. They bring traveling entertainment and culture to your local performing arts center.

Right now we need far more revenue to rebuild and maintain the nation's mobility infrastructure.

We are nearing the end of service life for so many systems that brought modern life to Americans. 75 years ago the first implementation of roads, water, sewer, gas, elec. were constructed.

Politicians avoid rasing the federal gas tax from 1993's 18.4 cents a gallon. Increased MPG and electric along with inflation erode its buying power and the infrastructure bill passed is now moot from inflation.

THE NEW EXPRESS LANES will accomplish much of what we need. They might be costly, but people are going to enjoy lanes that always flow at 45mph or faster, and they are adding capacity.

[Craziaskowboi]

The lack of an outer perimeter is a sin. Atlanta is a metropolitan area with 6,000,000 population with a highway network intended for a metropolitan area half its size.

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by architect77

Loops corral development to remain equidistant from downtown. They guide development around a city's core.

Atlanta is the poster child for sprawl from NOT building more loop-like highways. As a result developers keep buying land further out I-85, I-75.

In the early 90's Gwinnett Place mall was the outer edge of development. Since then it has expanded first to Mall of Georgia area, and now has literallly almost met the town of Commerce.

Forsyth developed with more affordable homes that have lured buyers from the entire country. A Northern Arc would have helped them tremendously without causing sprawl, but that didn't happen.

I'm not sure loop freeways really corral development in quite that way.

Dallas has 2 full loops and 2 extra turnpike/tollways to the north.

Their new development is mostly going northwards, like ours does. Development is going out past Frisco and development is pretty much continuous to Denton now.

Development to the Southeast drops off fairly quickly. It really only travels west, because historically and functionally Forth Worth is a different city. Just happens to be close enough with modern transportation commutes between the two are very normal.

Every city has somewhat of a "golden quarter" that attracts wealthier people and there is a economic incentive to chase business in that direction, which draws in more local employees in that direction... then creates a cycle of employees finding housing further out to work in those areas.

Even Houston that is more centered than Atlanta or Dallas is has grown significantly more in the Westward direction, than east.

In the Atlanta context, a northern arc would likely take development pressure off of Perimeter Center, but I'd suspect it would add it to the North point area as they could take on commuters from Cobb and Gwinnett easier. However, I suspect the favored quarter would still be to the north.