New rail lines take $$$$$$$ (Atlanta, Roswell: transfer, buying, construction)

[bu2]

https://www.wabe.org/marta-atlantas-...g-will-expand/

"...In weighing the different projects, Georgia Tech professor Kari Watkins noted that a challenge with heavy rail is its cost. The trains rely on a third rail for electricity, which creates a risk.
“It has to be separated,” Watkins said. “We can’t have a station that’s running at street level. And so you have to have above-ground or underground stations.”
All of that construction becomes expensive. A 2-mile expansion of MARTA’s heavy rail west toward I-285 is estimated at $500 million...."

"...The only way to avoid that is to buy the right-of-way, so the streetcar has a dedicated lane, she said.
And that, too, can be costly. The 4 miles of separated light rail proposed along the Clifton Corridor edges past $1 billion...."

[ATLTJL]

Really, that's what makes the cost so much, just that the stations can't be at street level? I thought it was buying the land for the right of way.

Anyway, I'm so sick of all these excuses. I mean, these people act like this is a new thing, like we don't already have miles of track and what, like 30 stations? (I don't know exactly how many). I mean, this stuff is NOT new. We've done it BEFORE.

Sure, times have changed and it's gotten more expensive, but guess what? The longer we wait, the more expensive it will become. It's really time for someone to just step up and say, "Look, this is going to be expensive as hell. It's going to hurt a little bit in the short-term. But the dividends are going to be huge and long-term, and we really have to get off our lazy excuse-making behinds, bite the bullet, and just effing do it right now."

That's the only way it's going to get done. Or else in 2052 you'll still be reading about mass transit studies and lawmakers taking taxpayer-funded trips to other cities who have done it to research what they did.

[primaltech]

That's why we need trackless trams. Reduce the cost of mass transit significantly. Don't need to build any kind of rail.

And as far as dedicated ROW for them, that could be done for the very low cost of a simple re-striping of the pavement, if we have the political will to sacrifice existing lanes.

[ATLTJL]

And as far as dedicated ROW for them, that could be done for the very low cost of a simple re-striping of the pavement, if we have the political will to sacrifice existing lanes.

1) We don't have the political will for that and never will. You know this, so just drop it already.

2) If you just restripe the pavement, what do you do when a jack knifed tractor trailer spills into it and closes all lanes? When the police close down all lanes of a highway to deal with an accident, would they have the authority to stop these trams as well?

I respectfully disagree: Rail is the only answer. Or sky buckets. I'd be fine with sky buckets!

[primaltech]

Commuter rail, then. Commuter rail is the one type of rail that would not cost $$$$$$$$$$$$. Would only cost maybe $$$$.

Because, like trackless trams, the ROW already exists. You'd have to widen the ROW and add a track (at least one), and you'd have to figure out how to share usage with freight, but the corridor is there, there's no tunneling involved, the stations could be simple and cheap, and placed right in the historic cities. The most walkable areas of the suburbs. Exactly where you would want a transit station.

Frequent commuter rail vs. heavy rail, it's a no-brainer in terms of cost and ride comfort and how quickly the line could come online. CRT is the answer.

With the lone exception of Roswell/Alpharetta, because it doesn't have a railroad corridor. And Six Flags.

[ATLTJL]

Commuter rail would serve the Gwinnett corridor perfectly because as you mentioned, that Norfolk Southern line already goes through the downtown areas of Norcross, Duluth, Suwanee...and I don't know how far north it goes, maybe Buford? It also naturally connects to Doraville MARTA, so transfers would be fast and easy.

The mayors of Norcross, Duluth, etc. are always going on and on about how they want to revitalize Buford Highway. This would be perfect since the tracks parallel it in close proximity.

Someone who knows all about this stuff has told us before why it isn't as easy as you think. If I recall, it has to do with that track being so profitable that Norfolk Southern won't even talk about sharing it for any kind of reasonable price. And apparently modern safety standards require quite strict codes that would make building stations very expensive.

[primaltech]

Originally Posted by ATLTJL

If I recall, it has to do with that track being so profitable that Norfolk Southern won't even talk about sharing it for any kind of reasonable price.

Well, that's where the widening/ adding of track comes in.

MARTA/GRTA/whomever, would have to make a deal with the freight companies that own almost all of the rail corridors (except the Chattanooga-Marietta-Atlanta line, which is owned by the state), and say, hey, we'll double your corridor and allow you to use the new track for additional freight capacity, if we can share usage of the existing and the new track for passenger rail. In theory this would be a good trade for them, because it more than doubles their capacity, because they can run multiple freight trains simultaneously.

And yeah, in Cobb, Gwinnett, Clayton, and South Fulton (and OTP DeKalb), it's the perfect setup for commuter rail, because you could have a stop right in the dense heart of almost every historic city, and even Snellville (which doesn't have a line) could have a park&ride station at Ronald Reagan Pkwy. And East Cobb could have park&ride commuter stations in the Sandy Plains area, on the line that goes to Woodstock.

And even the Cumberland business district would be served. It's a pretty perfect opportunity for us, for sure.

[fieldm]

Originally Posted by primaltech

Well, that's where the widening/ adding of track comes in.

MARTA/GRTA/whomever, would have to make a deal with the freight companies that own almost all of the rail corridors (except the Chattanooga-Marietta-Atlanta line, which is owned by the state), and say, hey, we'll double your corridor and allow you to use the new track for additional freight capacity, if we can share usage of the existing and the new track for passenger rail. In theory this would be a good trade for them, because it more than doubles their capacity, because they can run multiple freight trains simultaneously.

And yeah, in Cobb, Gwinnett, Clayton, and South Fulton (and OTP DeKalb), it's the perfect setup for commuter rail, because you could have a stop right in the dense heart of almost every historic city, and even Snellville (which doesn't have a line) could have a park&ride station at Ronald Reagan Pkwy. And East Cobb could have park&ride commuter stations in the Sandy Plains area, on the line that goes to Woodstock.

And even the Cumberland business district would be served. It's a pretty perfect opportunity for us, for sure.

All the rail lines in the metro area run damn near parallel to the interstate highways so that should be a no-brainer.

Gone and change the name of MARTA to GRTA and let them control all the land at each train stop (TOD). Then get the 1% tax from the county and get the money from the state and hopefully some from the gov and we should be straight

[DJDeadParrot]

Originally Posted by ATLTJL

Someone who knows all about this stuff has told us before why it isn't as easy as you think. If I recall, it has to do with that track being so profitable that Norfolk Southern won't even talk about sharing it for any kind of reasonable price.

That's part of it, but not the whole reason NS rails can't be used for commuter service. Those rails are very active [I counted 4 trains this morning between 5am and 6.15am passing through downtown Duluth], and are already being shared with Amtrak. A commuter train would need its own dedicated track, and even then, you could only run one train on that rail.

[Need4Camaro]

Originally Posted by bu2

https://www.wabe.org/marta-atlantas-...g-will-expand/

"...In weighing the different projects, Georgia Tech professor Kari Watkins noted that a challenge with heavy rail is its cost. The trains rely on a third rail for electricity, which creates a risk.
“It has to be separated,” Watkins said. “We can’t have a station that’s running at street level. And so you have to have above-ground or underground stations.”
All of that construction becomes expensive. A 2-mile expansion of MARTA’s heavy rail west toward I-285 is estimated at $500 million...."

"...The only way to avoid that is to buy the right-of-way, so the streetcar has a dedicated lane, she said.
And that, too, can be costly. The 4 miles of separated light rail proposed along the Clifton Corridor edges past $1 billion...."

This is far far FAR from true. There are SEVERAL trains even here in the U.S. that have a third rail and even have At-Grade Railroad Crossings AND At-Grade stations, for example in Chicago, the Blue Line and the Brown Line (I think there are others as well)... The third rail STOPS before the pavement of the railroad crossing and BEGINS after the crossing and the train is long enough that even in the middle of a large railroad crossing, the train ALWAYS has contact with the third rail at either the beginning of the railroad crossing or at the end of it.. Pedestrians are not at risk because the rail ends before the crossing...

I have actually wondered if MARTA has considered making their heavy rail At-Grade with crossings (this is alot more realistic than you think, alot of major cities do this.) outside of the perimeter and only grade-separating possibly heavy crossings or interstates...

Here's an example of a train that uses a third rail having a railroad crossing...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FePWfYZZRNI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wckuXsTwegM

Originally Posted by fieldm

All the *interstate highways* in the metro area run damn near parallel to the *rail lines* so that should be a no-brainer.

Gone and change the name of MARTA to GRTA and let them control all the land at each train stop (TOD). Then get the 1% tax from the county and get the money from the state and hopefully some from the gov and we should be straight

Corrected for ya - The rail lines were here long before the interstates