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Funny you recommend NASCAR decrease downforce and go to gumball tires when the racing series you use as a comparitive does the opposite.
Then you don't want cautions?! How do you propose the wrecks get cleaned up? BTW, less downforce & gumball tires cause more wrecks.
I love it. If NASCAR thought everything were sunshine and lollipops they wouldn't be investigating the competition level of the sport. Just because there are more cars on the lead lap now doesn't mean the racing is automatically better than it was in the 60s and 70s.
there is more parity in nascar these days than there was in the old days i can tell you that. remember back even unto the late 80s you would see one or two drivers winning most of the races. today there have been almost as many race winners as there have been races. back in the old days, the points leader usually only had to finish in the top 18 in the last two races of the season to win the championship, these days it generally goes right down to the last race of the season.
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It's a proven fact the leader has a tremendous aerodynamic advantage at damn near every track not named Daytona or Talladega. You don't necessarily have to have the fastest car, you just have to be out front at the end because unless your car's handling is way off (or there's a gimmicky Green-White-Checker finish with an equally gimmicky double-file restart) 2nd place isn't getting by you.
ah, no the leader does NOT have a tremendous areo advantage, they might have a slight one though, and only if the second place guy doesnt get up under the rear spoiler of the leader and get him loose.
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For the record I don't want cautions, whether they're crash-induced or the lovely phantom debris caution NASCAR's come to be known for. I also don't want to watch a race where nobody can pass the leader. I can watch F-1 for that.
no cautions eh? so what happens when you have a three car pile up that blocks the track? race down the pit road? that would be really safe now wouldnt it? or how about a big wreck at daytona, do they just leave the cars and the debris on the track so that more cars can wrekc because of cut tires?
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NASCAR needs to cut the downforce of the cars and get Goodyear to soften the tires up a bit. Make the handling go away instead of making them easy enough for a trained monkey to drive.
i agree that nascar needs to cut back on the aero devices allowed, but the softer tires are actually quite sticky and wouldnt hurt the handling, you need a harder tire for that.
perhaps before you spout off again about what you dont like about nascar, get an education first, then you can talk intelligently.
Funny you recommend NASCAR decrease downforce and go to gumball tires when the racing series you use as a comparitive does the opposite.
Yeah and the difference between the two cars is about 2000 pounds. NASCAR didn't have a problem with aero push or flying cars until the early 80s when the Big 3 downsized from the tanks to the taxi cabs. From that point on NASCAR started adding grounding effects galore to the cars.
The more they piled them on, the more pronounced the aero issues became. First it was the inside car spontaneously breaking loose and spinning in the corners due to the outside car taking the air off the spoiler, and then it progressed to the aero push.
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Originally Posted by WFW&P
Then you don't want cautions?! How do you propose the wrecks get cleaned up? BTW, less downforce & gumball tires cause more wrecks.
Yeah you and Rbohm got me alright, I wanna see a demo derby. My point is I could care less if a race is a 20-caution wreckfest or green from flag-to-flag as long as the damn thing is competitive. The leader constantly driving away from the pack and winning by 3-5 seconds is not my idea of competitive.
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Originally Posted by rbohm
there is more parity in nascar these days than there was in the old days i can tell you that. remember back even unto the late 80s you would see one or two drivers winning most of the races. today there have been almost as many race winners as there have been races. back in the old days, the points leader usually only had to finish in the top 18 in the last two races of the season to win the championship, these days it generally goes right down to the last race of the season.
You're right there is more parity, but let's not confuse parity with competition. So nowadays 10 drivers have the opportunity to win the race, but how often does it come down to a last lap shootout as opposed to the aforementioned a 3-5 second margin of victory?
And why does the championship go down to the last race of the season? The Chase. Yet another NASCAR gimmick.
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Originally Posted by rbohm
ah, no the leader does NOT have a tremendous areo advantage, they might have a slight one though, and only if the second place guy doesnt get up under the rear spoiler of the leader and get him loose.
Really? How many bump and runs have you seen lately? The rear end of the new car is so stable and the bumpers mesh so well that until NASCAR dropped the radiators down to a urine sample sized cup of coolant drivers could push each other all the way around Daytona and Talladega - corners included - without spinning them.
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no cautions eh? so what happens when you have a three car pile up that blocks the track? race down the pit road? that would be really safe now wouldnt it? or how about a big wreck at daytona, do they just leave the cars and the debris on the track so that more cars can wrekc because of cut tires?
Don't be obtuse. You know precisely what I was getting at. I don't want the fields artificially bunched up for the sake of competition.
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Originally Posted by rbohm
i agree that nascar needs to cut back on the aero devices allowed, but the softer tires are actually quite sticky and wouldnt hurt the handling, you need a harder tire for that.
I'll give you partial credit for this. Softer tires start with more grip but they wear out over the course of a run. A harder tire has less grip but it stays more consistent throughout the run. Right now the tires are so hard a car on old tires is almost as good as a car with stickers.
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Originally Posted by rbohm
perhaps before you spout off again about what you dont like about nascar, get an education first, then you can talk intelligently.
Someone get a little butthurt? I have an education thanks. Bachelor's degree. You can stick your head in the sand and think everything's hunky dory in NASCAR land or you can wake up and realize the sport's growth hit a plateau about 5 years ago and ratings and attendance have been trending downward ever since. Sure, the crappy economy has played a part, but so has the crappy product on the track.
Yeah and the difference between the two cars is about 2000 pounds. NASCAR didn't have a problem with aero push or flying cars until the early 80s when the Big 3 downsized from the tanks to the taxi cabs. From that point on NASCAR started adding grounding effects galore to the cars.
aero push and aero loose has been an issue in nascar since the early days of the sport. this is nothing new.
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You're right there is more parity, but let's not confuse parity with competition. So nowadays 10 drivers have the opportunity to win the race, but how often does it come down to a last lap shootout as opposed to the aforementioned a 3-5 second margin of victory?
one thing you have to understand is that anything can happen on the track, even to the leader running away from the field. how many times have driver run out of fuel trying to push the envelope? remember last years coke 600? JR was leading coming out of turn four, and he ran out of fuel and lost the race? and that is just one instance. engines break, tires go flat, etc. last lap shoot out do happen a lot more these days than they did in the old days. back in the 60s it was not uncommon for the leader to be up two laps on the field at the end of the race.
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And why does the championship go down to the last race of the season? The Chase. Yet another NASCAR gimmick.
would you rather have it like the pre chase seasons where the points leader just has to start the last race to win the championship? that has happened many times over the years, and many more times the points leader just had to finish 18th or better to win the championship. at least with the championship in doubt in the last race of the season all the drivers with a chance to win the championship have to race for it, not just run laps.
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Really? How many bump and runs have you seen lately? The rear end of the new car is so stable and the bumpers mesh so well that until NASCAR dropped the radiators down to a urine sample sized cup of coolant drivers could push each other all the way around Daytona and Talladega - corners included - without spinning them.
more than you realize. bumping another car to get them loose however is passe these days. it does just as well to get close and take the air off the spoiler and get the front car loose.
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I'll give you partial credit for this. Softer tires start with more grip but they wear out over the course of a run. A harder tire has less grip but it stays more consistent throughout the run. Right now the tires are so hard a car on old tires is almost as good as a car with stickers.
actually goodyear has built tires with the softer compounds that last like tires with harder compounds. this is a case of racing does improve the breed as similar compounds are used on high performance street tires to get longer life as well as high traction.
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Someone get a little butthurt? I have an education thanks. Bachelor's degree. You can stick your head in the sand and think everything's hunky dory in NASCAR land or you can wake up and realize the sport's growth hit a plateau about 5 years ago and ratings and attendance have been trending downward ever since. Sure, the crappy economy has played a part, but so has the crappy product on the track.
i was referring to an education about the sport itself. try spending some time as a crew member on a race team, or spend time in the team shops working on the cars. i also have a degree in automotive technology, as well as experience as a crew chief on a couple of race teams. i understand circle track racing, drag racing and road racing. i have constantly kept up with developments in the racing industry.
Yeah and the difference between the two cars is about 2000 pounds. NASCAR didn't have a problem with aero push or flying cars until the early 80s when the Big 3 downsized from the tanks to the taxi cabs. From that point on NASCAR started adding grounding effects galore to the cars.
The more they piled them on, the more pronounced the aero issues became. First it was the inside car spontaneously breaking loose and spinning in the corners due to the outside car taking the air off the spoiler, and then it progressed to the aero push.
Take away the built in downforce of an Indy car and what do you have? A go cart that becomes a kite at about 180 mph, assuming it made it through the turns. The cars only began to fly when the engine builders were able to get the 358s to pump out more horses than the big blocks that had been banned years earlier. As for the rest of the areo issues they weren't present in the older cars because they didn't run that close together.
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Originally Posted by bluescreen73
Yeah you and Rbohm got me alright, I wanna see a demo derby. My point is I could care less if a race is a 20-caution wreckfest or green from flag-to-flag as long as the damn thing is competitive. The leader constantly driving away from the pack and winning by 3-5 seconds is not my idea of competitive.
Then WOO and other sprint car racing is what you will have to watch and only because the races are so short there is not enough time to run away.
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Originally Posted by bluescreen73
And why does the championship go down to the last race of the season?
For the same reason stick & balls sports want the series to go to the final game?
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Originally Posted by bluescreen73
Really? How many bump and runs have you seen lately? The rear end of the new car is so stable and the bumpers mesh so well that until NASCAR dropped the radiators down to a urine sample sized cup of coolant drivers could push each other all the way around Daytona and Talladega - corners included - without spinning them.
Bump & runs are chicken s**t, any booger eating moron can knock a car out of the way. It takes skill to actually pass.
Last seaon there were a plethora(sp?) of wrecks due to drivers pushing through the corners at Daytona.
It's pretty ironic you criticize stock cars for being stable and yet the Indy series you praise the cars are designed to be just that- stable.
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Originally Posted by bluescreen73
Someone get a little butthurt? I have an education thanks. Bachelor's degree. You can stick your head in the sand and think everything's hunky dory in NASCAR land or you can wake up and realize the sport's growth hit a plateau about 5 years ago and ratings and attendance have been trending downward ever since. Sure, the crappy economy has played a part, but so has the crappy product on the track.
Show's over!! He has a Bachelors!! I guess that makes you a better arm chair racer than the rest of us.
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My point is I could care less if a race is a 20-caution wreckfest or green from flag-to-flag as long as the damn thing is competitive. The leader constantly driving away from the pack and winning by 3-5 seconds is not my idea of competitive.
Show's over!! He has a Bachelors!! I guess that makes you a better arm chair racer than the rest of us. 
