Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Two of my friends, one retired Air Force and one a plant worker at the M-B facility both tell me just how "normal" German cars really are. They've both spent lots of time in Germany and will tell you just how common those cars are. The fact is, Mercedes won't sell a car with roll up windows, manual transmission, vinyl seats, sub 200hp engine, small wheels blah blah in this country. They've tried a few cheap cars, the two hatchbacks that M-B and BMW both had a while back (C230 and 318ti, I think?) but cars like that just don't do very well here.
No, they'd rather maintain the air of being better and above everything else because that's the way our market perceives them, they can also charge more money. But back in Germany thay make cheap cars that end up as taxis, fleet cars, common people's cars for their citizens to drive. Like he's saying, until you get into an AMG, or 50-60K+ car, what they have to offer is no more special then the typical American, Japanese or Korean built machine (drive layout notwithstanding.)
The base models for the C-class and 3-series as well as the A4 are still being sold in the US. Not only that, but we also now have the BMW 1-series and Audi A3, likelihood of a smaller Mercedes, not to mention Volkswagen. So we're gaining ever lower-scaled, smaller models, contrary to what you've implied. If you didn't know, modern Volkswagens are scaled down, essentially base models, of Audi and it has been that way since Mercedes sold Audi to Volkswagen and they built the first modern Audi (100) with success. A half decade or so later the first modern Volkswagen was built based off the Audi 100, the Passat. There is a demand for non-luxury German engineering in this country and Volkswagen proves that. With Mercedes, though, having base models and fleet vehicles in Europe doesn't say anything bad about the brand. The problem with doing that here in the US is Americans are all about branding and it should be easy to understand why MB doesn't want to mess with the successful image they targeted at American buyers. Besides, fleet vehicles are generally bought with a buy-American mentality. And many of engines used in Europe would be considered underpowered here or be illegal in the case of most of the diesels.
You do realize Mercedes-Benz invented the automobile as well as pioneered many of the innovations all automakers take for granted today? Research Mercedes-Benz and Bosch, if you need to.
BTW, superficial luxury amenities such as leather, power windows, locks, etc. are not what make for a good car - it's engineering with passion and integrity, building enduring, high-mileage, high-quality cars. That's the problem with many American cars, such as Cadillac for instance - decent designs, luxury facade, perhaps good performance at first, but cars that aren't built to last and seep oil through poorly-casted engine alloy and blown head gaskets and general vibrating/rattling apart, burning oil/blowing black smoke, etc.
The fact is, Mercedes won't sell a car with roll up windows, manual transmission, vinyl seats, sub 200hp engine, small wheels blah blah in this country.
Not sure about M-B, but i know BMW and Audi both sell cars with synthetic leather, known as "Leatherette". It is significantly nicer than typical "vinyl" but still not leather. When I test drove a bunch of E46 3 series, the leather optioned cars always looked worn out, while the leatherette equipped cars still had new looking seats...hence the reason i opted for Leatherette in my VW.
Also know it wasn't until the last eh...10 years or so that BMW was pushing over 200 hp on their base model 3 series. I know Audi was advertising more power out of their base A4, than BMW had in their 3 series...and the A4 only has the VW/Audi 2.0T, 200-210 hp engine standard.
I've been in my fair share of the German marque vehicles and there is nothing SPECIAL about them when compared with other vehicles of the same stature. I'm not trying to compare a Kia and a Benz as being one in the same but rather illustrating the point that both are mass-produced vehicles.
Unless you buy the AMG Mercedes (not sure about the M BMW), you're buying a mass-produced vehicle made on an assembly line like any other mainstream car; you AREN'T buying some unique and special. That's why I made the point about buying a vehicle such as a Bentley or Rolls Royce where these vehicles ARE special; having materials hand crafted, hand finished, etc. You don't have that level of exclusiveness in ANY mass-produced vehicle whether it be a $10K Kia or $100K Mercedes.
I'm not talking about exclsivity. I'm talking about the basic engieering of the multi link suspension and the geometry used in order to get unrivalled feedback, even in the entry level versions. THAT'S the engineering ability i look for. So what if it ALSo comes down an assembly line? That doesn't make it the same as a ****ing Kia. Even if the average buyer can't tell teh difference. It's still there. A Corvette goes down an assembly line just like a Cruze. Does that mean a Corvette is an identical performance car to a Cruze? or engineered the same?
Quote:
You can argue the sporty feel of a BMW all you want but the MAJORITY of buyers aren't buying a BMW for the nature of the car but rather the idea of having this glorious BMW in their garage. I'm glad you like your Beemer, by all means enjoy it. I'm not denigrating anyone's choice in vehicles, it just irks me when some people (not you or NJGoat) come here and sing of the praises of anything from Germany as being utterly superior.
Just because the AVERAGE buyer is going off the reputation that the enthusiasts gave the cars doesn't make the cars less engineered. Quit using the ignorance of the average buyer to say that the cars themselves aren't engineered better for the enthusiast. Ok?
You do realize Mercedes-Benz invented the automobile as well as pioneered many of the innovations all automakers take for granted today? Research Mercedes-Benz and Bosch, if you need to.
BTW, superficial luxury amenities such as leather, power windows, locks, etc. are not what make for a good car - it's engineering with passion and integrity, building enduring, high-mileage, high-quality cars. That's the problem with many American cars, such as Cadillac for instance - decent designs, luxury facade, perhaps good performance at first, but cars that aren't built to last and seep oil through poorly-casted engine alloy and blown head gaskets and general vibrating/rattling apart, burning oil/blowing black smoke, etc.
Karl Benz may have invented the automobile (and that IS disputed) but there have been more American companies that have pioneered innovations for the automobile through the years- significantly more than Mercedes has invented.
Where do you get this "engineering with passion and integrity" stuff? These cars are made on an assembly line just like every other automobile, there is nothing SPECIAL about the way these cars are engineered, it's a very clever marketing ploy that has evidently worked quite well for a number of people.
You're basing your assumptions of an entire luxury brand by a few problems such as the Northstar headgasket problem and some engine-related troubles in the 1980's. Mercedes doesn't exactly has a stellar track-record either; they're produced their share of turds like every other manufacturer. Cadillac's can last for hundreds of thousands of miles, like EVERY other automobile, with proper maintenance and care. I live in the land of old people and I've seen some Cadillacs pushing 300K miles.
Rattling apart? Not if you take care of it. A Mercedes will rattle apart too if driven hard and put away wet.
Engineering is very different from assembly. Most modern vehicles are rolling along an assembly line, even the Bentley Continental. You ask if an assembly line of one manufacturer is better than another? The quick answer is..."YES".
The idea of assembly is essentially the same across brands, but the tolerances and quality control will vary from location to location, shift to shift, and country to country. Hyundai didn't suffer for years because they offered their vehicles for an affordable price, and not because they provided one of the longest warranty periods in the industry, but because they suffered from TERRIBLE quality control. You were going to be taking that affordable new sedan to the shop numerous times to fix things that should have been corrected before the car left the assembly line. Hyundai has recently been trying to improve it's image, and the biggest thing they were having to focus on was improving the quality of their vehicles.
Honestly, i think the German's tend to put a certain value on their attention to detail...they also tend to over engineer their machinery, which tends to show through in it's quality. The other major German advantage is their autobahn, while significantly more congested than it was in the past...having a location where people can drive a car at 100+ mph on a regular basis tends to result in a more firm chassis, more responsive steering, exceptional brakes, and well geared engines. I really think now would be a fantastic time to build an American autobahn .
The base models for the C-class and 3-series as well as the A4 are still being sold in the US. Not only that, but we also now have the BMW 1-series and Audi A3, likelihood of a smaller Mercedes, not to mention Volkswagen. So we're gaining ever lower-scaled, smaller models, contrary to what you've implied.
That is true. However, I'm willing to bet that the average 3, 1, A4 or C class driver thinks his vehicles is leaps and bounds above the typical person driving a loaded Accord or Altima. I also believe the people who have these vehicles are among the snobbiest and stereotypical of drivers. In my part of the world - these are the types who have garden homes or townhouses in Greystone or Inverness. 30K millionaires if you will. The perception is really what I'm getting at. A guy driving a 100K 7 or S class has no reason to front or strut. The engineering and cost of the vehicle alone says it all. Those vehicles ARE built with more care and more precision then the average car.
Quote:
If you didn't know, modern Volkswagens are scaled down, essentially base models, of Audi and it has been that way since Mercedes sold Audi to Volkswagen and they built the first modern Audi (100) with success.
I am aware. I'm also aware that VW does not have the same marketing position or perception of Audi or M-B or BMW. Audi is climbing, but there is still a pecking order and M-B is at the top, followed (or equaled, not trying to argue) by BMW. Audi is definitely third as far as percieved value of a luxury brand.
Quote:
With Mercedes, though, having base models and fleet vehicles in Europe doesn't say anything bad about the brand.
I never said that it did. Its just that I believe most people in this country who are ignorant to the fact think that a M-B is just too nice and too expensive to ever see duty that a lowly Crown Vic is subjected to.
Quote:
The problem with doing that here in the US is Americans are all about branding and it should be easy to understand why MB doesn't want to mess with the successful image they targeted at American buyers. Besides, fleet vehicles are generally bought with a buy-American mentality. And many of engines used in Europe would be considered underpowered here or be illegal in the case of most of the diesels.
The Germans are selling us diesels now and the typical Crown Vic has 210hp. Fleets here regularly contain foreign vehicles. The Germans and Japanese protect their home markets. They would never allow Crown Vics or Impalas to be bought in bulk on their turf. You catch a cab in Munich or Tokyo it is going to be a Crown or a E320. The only reason fleet is a dirty word in the US is because American automakers have to get down in the grease to compete with foreign cars. That won't happen in Germany or Japan.
Quote:
You do realize Mercedes-Benz invented the automobile as well as pioneered many of the innovations all automakers take for granted today? Research Mercedes-Benz and Bosch, if you need to.
Yes, I do. I don't see the relevance.
Quote:
BTW, superficial luxury amenities such as leather, power windows, locks, etc. are not what make for a good car - it's engineering with passion and integrity, building enduring, high-mileage, high-quality cars. That's the problem with many American cars, such as Cadillac for instance - decent designs, luxury facade, perhaps good performance at first, but cars that aren't built to last and seep oil through poorly-casted engine alloy and blown head gaskets and general vibrating/rattling apart, burning oil/blowing black smoke, etc.
Lies. I've posted in another thread how a 2010 Cadillac outperforms a 2010 BMW 3 or 5 Mercedes C or E in cost of ownership. A bad run of Northstars in late 90's to 2000 Devilles and Sevilles is not the sumtotalling of what Cadillac is capable of. The Germans have certainly had their fair share of quality fiascos. The fuel pumps in N5X engines comes to mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flynavyj
Not sure about M-B, but i know BMW and Audi both sell cars with synthetic leather, known as "Leatherette". It is significantly nicer than typical "vinyl" but still not leather. When I test drove a bunch of E46 3 series, the leather optioned cars always looked worn out, while the leatherette equipped cars still had new looking seats...hence the reason i opted for Leatherette in my VW.
I know you can get a cheap M-B with leatherette. What you can't get is a very cheap M-B that costs about the same as an Accord or Impala. Forget currency conversion. A typical German family can afford to buy a Mercedes because that's like owning a Chevrolet in this country, that is my point. The marketing perception is different. The market positioning is different. Parts and service and the whole experience is different. You still have the high end luxury stuff for the wealthy, but the company chases after the common man's money as well.
I'm probably a vehicle enthusiast more than the typical German car buyer, but I would much rather drive an entry level German sedan over a loaded Japanese sedan. Not because of the creature comforts, but from the driving experience...I have nothing against American cars by the way, nor the vehicles of Japan.
When I purchased my jetta, i test drove TONS of cars from manufacturers all over the globe. But I had a massive fear of making payments on a car I didn't enjoy driving...the Jetta put a smile on my face that was only exceeded by the 3 series...end result though was the Jetta was affordable enough to keep my wallet from hurting. So now I get to drive a "cheap" A3 that has more thrills than a civic or corolla.
An anecdote.... I was at a cocktail party where one of the guests was Emilio Anchisi, the then president of Ferrari North America. He was telling me about his newly ordered Rolls Silver Spur. I laughed and asked him why he didn't buy a better built car like an S class MB. I'll always remember fondly the patient look he gave me when he said "Son, in the rest of the world Benzes are taxi cabs."
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
.
