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Weren't you worried about lubrication at start up?
Because that conventional oil is way to thick to be used at even 10*F.
it will just squirt threw the bypass and not lubricate your engine.
Regardless of what the MFG recommends.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayinAK
1988 GMC Sierra. 7,000 miles on a newly rebuilt motor (pictures below), lubricated with Mobil 1 5W-30 year round. But also drive a 1987 Civic Si with nearly 257,000 miles. On this one I have always used 10W-30 conventional oils year round, and still running strong, from -40 or so to +89 degrees.
Remember when a engine need to be rebuilt at 75k or less?
Aircraft engines also need to be rebuilt earlier than they do today, the Air Force didn't start to experiment with synthetics until the late 50's.
I nor anyone else mentioned to using any "snake oil"
Today it is common to go 100k or more without a rebuild this was not so in the20's- 60's or unless it was a diesel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayinAK
Don't forget that years ago there were no modern oils like we have today. The people were not as smart as Bob is, but they did extremely well with the inferior oils of the day. They flew aircraft using such oils, and even some of the old motors still run today. Today we talk about all this nonsense and snake oils, and our automobiles don't last any longer than the ones from years ago when people din't worry so much about the chemistry of oils.
The job that your engine oil does has expanded the last 2-3 decades with the invention of the EPA. Lubrication is only part of it.
Thinner oils with "snake oils" added offer better lubrication and they put less strain on the engine.
Better Snake oils improve or prevent viscosity break down,
clean the engine, keep soot suspended, and last longer.
The CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy)standards were different when your vehicles were made, that same engine today may use a thinner oil.
Thick, high-viscosity oils are good for enveloping grit. They also do a great job of sealing and cushioning, which are two important functions of all motor oils (much more 30 years ago than today). The aluminum piston alloys in use circa 1960 had high expansion rates and poor high temperature strength. Accordingly, they needed to be surrounded by thick oil, to seal the fire trying to blow past the generous clearances--and to keep them from rattling in their bores.
Thick oils spread the concentrated loads between roller bearings and their races. The mechanism of rolling-element bearing failure usually is "brinelling," fatigue-related flaking, of the inner bearing race. Under load, the race under the roller (or ball) yields minutely as the bearing turns, just as a paved street yields to the weight of a passing truck. And in time the bearing race, much like the street, begins to break up.
Plain insert-type bearings can also fall victim to fatigue failure. You can bring about their early demise by feeding them a too-thick oil, which will turn into a too-thin oil in the bearing. The oil in plain bearings, whether connecting rod inserts or the floating bushings in a supercharger, is heated by fluid shearing. If the oil's viscosity and bearing clearance are properly matched, there will be sufficientoil flowing past the bearing to keep it cool.
When you pour SAE 40 into an engine designed for SAE 10-30, you may intend to protect its bearings with the thicker oil. But the increased oil viscosity , and resulting reduction of flow, can overheat the bearing. The metals used in plain bearings--copper, lead, and aluminum--typically lose half their ambient temperature strength at 200 degrees F. Copper-lead bearings are stressed near their elastic limit at redline crank speeds, even with crankcase oil temperatures below 250 degrees F. Pour in some thick oil, or a "snake oil" viscosity index improver, and you'll reduce the bearing's oil flow, which will make it hotter and may cause it to fail.
Oil pressure is caused by the resistance of the oil to flow (viscosity) under the pumping action of the oil pump. With wide oil galleries and low viscosity oil, flow would be rapid and oil pressure low - a very desirable condition for minimizing wear. Conversely, under the same pumping conditions; with narrow oil galleries (by design or by blockage) and high viscosity oil, the oil flow will be slow & oil pressure will be high, hence resulting in less efficient lubrication.
Remember that the registered oil pressure is only an indication of the proper functioning of the oiling system. Sudden changes or wide variations in oil pressure should be considered as a warning that the engine is in need of attention. Abnormal oil pressures are seldom the fault of the engine oil.
Question, Could using a 5W-30, 10W-30, 0W-30 or even a 10W-40 or 20W-50, oil in my vehicle which specifies a 5W-20 oil void my new car warranty?
Answer, Absolutely not. Vehicle manufacturers only recommend using motor oils meeting certain viscosity grades and American Petroleum Institute service requirements. Whether a motor oil is a 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30, 0W-30, 10W-40 or 20W-50 (for racing and high performance applications in, for example, a Cobra R Mustang) or even a synthetic vs. a petroleum based oil will not affect warranty coverage. The manufacturer is required by Federal Law to cover all equipment failures it would normally cover as long as the oil meets API service requirements and specifications and was not the cause of failure. In addition, the Federally mandated Magnuson - Moss Act states that a manufacturer may not require a specific brand or type of aftermarket product unless it is provided free of charge. If your dealership continues to tell you that you must use 5W-20 motor oil and or/ a specific brand of 5W-20 motor oil, then ask them to put it in writing. Their position is inaccurate, and, in fact violates existing law.
In the old days, viscosity made a big difference as far as protection.
Why? because it was acting like a barrier, it was thicker and it took more pressure to squeeze the oil out between the parts. Therefore it protected more, now, we have better barrier additives and no longer have to use as thick of oil as we use to. We now get better protection in a lower viscosity oil but also get better gas mileage because it takes less to move the oil unlike the thick oil we use to use. Viscosity use to play a big role in protecting an engine but now, along with viscosity improver & additives make a big difference.
Last edited by snofarmer; 10-16-2012 at 10:52 AM..
Location: Just East of the Southern Portion of the Western Part of PA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayinAK
Your comments above is what is laughable, and for the following reasons: First the "W" used on enine oils stands for "winter." But lets say that it's -30 degrees outside when you start your truck. How cold do you think the fluids in the motor are? How long do you think it takes for the oil in your motor to flow should you by any chance not follow the automobile manufacturer's chart of the oil viscosity versus ambient temperature you should use? Also, lets say that you use an oil that is designed for winter driving and has an extremely low viscosity during the summer. In this case the oil is not going to provide the proper engine lubrication, unless the oil maker has designed this oil for all-weather driving. Even so, one should still use the oil recommended by the automobile manufacturer, at least if the car still is under warranty.
Most of the engine wear happens when you start the motor. If the motor's oil level/oil condition are good and the oil pump has already established the lubrication process, then motor's wear is reduced to it's minimum. But you can't ignore the proper type of oil for driving conditions (summer, winter, towing, and so forth).
You always have to use the viscosity versus ambient temperature (climate) of the oil you are using in your automobile, regardless if the oil is synthetic or not, and this has nothing to do with the engine temperature, which by the way is the antifreeze's. The oil around the rings and valves is a lot hotter than what the temperature gage tells you.
For more on this subject, Google "oil viscosity and ambient temperature."
All I am saying is that you should use the lowest first number that you can, regardless of climate. You always need the oil to flow as best as possible during startup, so use a 0w-XXX. The oil viscosity will then change as the oil heats up with the engine to the upper viscosity rating.
Weren't you worried about lubrication at start up?
Because that conventional oil is way to thick to be used at even 10*F.
it will just squirt threw the bypass and not lubricate your engine.
Regardless of what the MFG recommends.
Remember when a engine need to be rebuilt at 75k or less?
Aircraft engines also need to be rebuilt earlier than they do today, the Air Force didn't start to experiment with synthetics until the late 50's.
I nor anyone else mentioned to using any "snake oil"
Today it is common to go 100k or more without a rebuild this was not so in the20's- 60's or unless it was a diesel.
The job that your engine oil does has expanded the last 2-3 decades with the invention of the EPA. Lubrication is only part of it.
Thinner oils with "snake oils" added offer better lubrication and they put less strain on the engine.
Better Snake oils improve or prevent viscosity break down,
clean the engine, keep soot suspended, and last longer.
The 257,000 miles on my Civic was my way of telling how insignificant arguing about oil technology is. Instead of all the arguing about which oil to use, just follow one of them "old fashion" oil/ambient temperature charts provided by the automobile manufacturer. May be old fashioned, but it beats having to be a rocket scientist juts to choose the right oil Also, years ago engines lasted just the same, and this includes the 1988 truck I posted above. The engine lasted over 250,000 miles, and I nought it after the 5,000-mile mark.
By the way, the charts I have mentioned over and over are also included in owner manuals of all sorts: for generators, ATV's, motorcycles, motorized scooters, lawnmowers, and even aircraft.
All I am saying is that you should use the lowest first number that you can, regardless of climate. You always need the oil to flow as best as possible during startup, so use a 0w-XXX. The oil viscosity will then change as the oil heats up with the engine to the upper viscosity rating.
I agree with you, then. But buyers of new automobiles should still follow the automobile manufacturer's recommendations in the owners manual.
The CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy)standards were different when your vehicles were made, that same engine today may use a thinner oil.
Thick, high-viscosity oils are good for enveloping grit. They also do a great job of sealing and cushioning, which are two important functions of all motor oils (much more 30 years ago than today). The aluminum piston alloys in use circa 1960 had high expansion rates and poor high temperature strength. Accordingly, they needed to be surrounded by thick oil, to seal the fire trying to blow past the generous clearances--and to keep them from rattling in their bores.
Thick oils spread the concentrated loads between roller bearings and their races. The mechanism of rolling-element bearing failure usually is "brinelling," fatigue-related flaking, of the inner bearing race. Under load, the race under the roller (or ball) yields minutely as the bearing turns, just as a paved street yields to the weight of a passing truck. And in time the bearing race, much like the street, begins to break up.
Plain insert-type bearings can also fall victim to fatigue failure. You can bring about their early demise by feeding them a too-thick oil, which will turn into a too-thin oil in the bearing. The oil in plain bearings, whether connecting rod inserts or the floating bushings in a supercharger, is heated by fluid shearing. If the oil's viscosity and bearing clearance are properly matched, there will be sufficientoil flowing past the bearing to keep it cool.
When you pour SAE 40 into an engine designed for SAE 10-30, you may intend to protect its bearings with the thicker oil. But the increased oil viscosity , and resulting reduction of flow, can overheat the bearing. The metals used in plain bearings--copper, lead, and aluminum--typically lose half their ambient temperature strength at 200 degrees F. Copper-lead bearings are stressed near their elastic limit at redline crank speeds, even with crankcase oil temperatures below 250 degrees F. Pour in some thick oil, or a "snake oil" viscosity index improver, and you'll reduce the bearing's oil flow, which will make it hotter and may cause it to fail.
Oil pressure is caused by the resistance of the oil to flow (viscosity) under the pumping action of the oil pump. With wide oil galleries and low viscosity oil, flow would be rapid and oil pressure low - a very desirable condition for minimizing wear. Conversely, under the same pumping conditions; with narrow oil galleries (by design or by blockage) and high viscosity oil, the oil flow will be slow & oil pressure will be high, hence resulting in less efficient lubrication.
Remember that the registered oil pressure is only an indication of the proper functioning of the oiling system. Sudden changes or wide variations in oil pressure should be considered as a warning that the engine is in need of attention. Abnormal oil pressures are seldom the fault of the engine oil.
Question, Could using a 5W-30, 10W-30, 0W-30 or even a 10W-40 or 20W-50, oil in my vehicle which specifies a 5W-20 oil void my new car warranty?
Answer, Absolutely not. Vehicle manufacturers only recommend using motor oils meeting certain viscosity grades and American Petroleum Institute service requirements. Whether a motor oil is a 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30, 0W-30, 10W-40 or 20W-50 (for racing and high performance applications in, for example, a Cobra R Mustang) or even a synthetic vs. a petroleum based oil will not affect warranty coverage. The manufacturer is required by Federal Law to cover all equipment failures it would normally cover as long as the oil meets API service requirements and specifications and was not the cause of failure. In addition, the Federally mandated Magnuson - Moss Act states that a manufacturer may not require a specific brand or type of aftermarket product unless it is provided free of charge. If your dealership continues to tell you that you must use 5W-20 motor oil and or/ a specific brand of 5W-20 motor oil, then ask them to put it in writing. Their position is inaccurate, and, in fact violates existing law.
In the old days, viscosity made a big difference as far as protection.
Why? because it was acting like a barrier, it was thicker and it took more pressure to squeeze the oil out between the parts. Therefore it protected more, now, we have better barrier additives and no longer have to use as thick of oil as we use to. We now get better protection in a lower viscosity oil but also get better gas mileage because it takes less to move the oil unlike the thick oil we use to use. Viscosity use to play a big role in protecting an engine but now, along with viscosity improver & additives make a big difference.
Just a reminder: using the wrong oil is not what voids the motor's warranty, but having an engine breakdown and then the mechanic determining that it was caused by the wrong oil.
I would strongly suggest using the oil the manufacturer recommends.
I mean seriously.... Do you really want to use an oil that is not recommended by the manufacturer just to save a few dollars? It could end up costing you several thousand in repair costs and would definitely void any kind of manufacturer's warranty that may be left on the vehicle. The manufacturer knows the vehicle far better than you do and chose those specifications for good reason.
It doesn't work that way, you are still hung up on the numbers on the oil bottle.
The most important thing on the bottle is the alphabet soup.
The wrong type could be a determining factor but the weight would not be.
A exact engine made 25 years ago could have a different oil weight recommended to meet cart certification than that same engine does today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayinAK
Just a reminder: using the wrong oil is not what voids the motor's warranty, but having an engine breakdown and then the mechanic determining that it was caused by the wrong oil.
hen I think some fall prey to the MFG's hype.
I found this snippet interesting.
Tom Read, a spokesperson for GM's powertrain technology group, warns that using an alternative oil might diminish performance. "If a customer uses a non-licensed engine oil that is simply ILSAC GF-5 quality, they will not enjoy the benefits of using a Dexos-licensed product," Read says. Those benefits could include better low-temperature performance, cleaner pistons and better aeration performance, he says. "This could be especially important as the engine oil ages."
Read's case for Dexos sounds compelling, but Valvoline's Smith isn't buying it.
"Our SynPower 5W-20, 5W-30 and DuraBlend 5W-30 went through all the Dexos testing and passed all the requirements," Smith says. "But we felt that carrying the Dexos name was not providing the consumer with any value."
Rather than raise the price of its oil to offset the cost of licensing the Dexos name, Valvoline chose to forgo the license and keep the prices lower, he says.
Smith says that GM's engine-performance warnings are part of its goal to drive consumers to dealerships for their maintenance. "We feel that they are taking choice away from the consumer," he says.
Last edited by snofarmer; 10-16-2012 at 10:19 PM..
I was able to exchange my 5W20 for 10W30 and will use what the book suggests.
Thanks to everyone for their (sometimes passionate) opinion on this subject.
Follow the book and you will do fine. Once the warranty is over you can experiment if you like, although "snake oils" is no guarantee that the motor will last any longer
I followed the book with my 1987 Civic, and 257,000 miles later I have no reasons to complain.
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Also, years ago engines lasted just the same, and this includes the 1988 truck I posted above. The engine lasted over 250,000 miles, and I nought it after the 5,000-mile mark.
