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Old 03-23-2014, 04:54 PM
 
13 posts, read 47,842 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrician4you View Post
Most people barely understand the maintenance needed on their cars, and you want them to drive around in a pressure cooker? Yeah I don't see steam powered cars making a comeback.
Do you mean the compact steam generator made of 1/4" steel tubes with an internal volume under 2 liters and contained in a combustion chamber and insulated air preheater with multiple barriers? Seriously, you can't compare a modern system to 150 year old technology.
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Old 03-23-2014, 06:35 PM
 
13 posts, read 47,842 times
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Originally Posted by rbohm View Post
a steam engine can use just about anything that burns, including methane, which would be an excellent source of fuel for a steam engine, you could get it at your local sewage treatment plant, or dairy farm for instance, or make your own.
This is an important point that I wish to emphasize. Not only can a modern steam engine be configured to use almost any fuel, but it could use different fuels in concert. Furthermore, this would not necessarily affect the efficiency or performance. I personally believe a compact system could be configured to use a combination of a liquid fuel and a biomass pellet furnace while retaining high efficiency and performance. Incidentally, internal combustion engines can be fueled by wood or charcoal surprisingly well, but require a bulky gas producer and fuel gas filtration and cooler (see gasification). A modern steam engine system could be a lot more efficient and compact, and with a great deal more performance than the bulky wood gas engine systems. Actually fueling a modern automobile at least partly with solid biomass is an interesting prospect.
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Old 03-23-2014, 10:53 PM
 
22,654 posts, read 24,579,035 times
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Probably would be more inefficient than a modern ICE.
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Old 03-24-2014, 01:42 PM
 
13 posts, read 47,842 times
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Originally Posted by tickyul View Post
Probably would be more inefficient than a modern ICE.
I agree. The peak efficiency of a high compression modern ICE would most likely be higher than any piston steam engine.
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Old 03-26-2014, 04:01 AM
 
Location: Louisville KY
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I'm glad other people with the right everything are building them. I wish I had a chance to build mine.
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Old 03-26-2014, 08:55 AM
 
Location: State of Superior
8,733 posts, read 15,934,856 times
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There are so many "fixes" floating around that to the average guy on the street it becomes a selling point situation . When the first electric cars were being promoted, it was directed to the woman driver ( of which there were few and those few were quite wealthy ) who could not crank the IC engine because of the brute energy required.It had nothing to do with pollution control or cost efficiency. In 1912 along came the electric starter motor and all the electric cars went away. Now today they are back, hopefully not as a fix, but as new and better technology. Whats even more important however is that we rid the world of coal fired power plants, that produce in part the charging of the lithium Ion Batteries.Had the power generating industry directed their money and effort towards arresting the pollution instead of fighting to continue the status of burning coal.

We do not need anymore temporary "get by" tech. what we need is a real commitment and not one driven by politics and agendas....natural gas is another one that does not meet the smell test !
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Old 03-27-2014, 02:42 PM
 
13 posts, read 47,842 times
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The graph shows the efficiency of typical automotive gas and diesel engines as they vary over their power range, and at 50% max rpm which is typical of actual driving conditions. Note that the "Bourque engine" is a sophisticated modern piston steam engine proposed by Dr. Robert Bourque (Bourque Steam Engine). The purpose of presenting this is not to introduce his engine, but to illustrate how the efficiency of typical automotive engines vary significantly over their power range (especially gas engines). You will need to know some conversion factors to convert to efficiency figures (note that gallons are U.S.):
1 KWh = 3412 btu , 2.205 lbs = 1000 grams, 1 gallon gasoline weighs 6.22 lbs, 1 gallon diesel fuel weighs 6.94 lbs. Also, one gallon of gasoline has a lower heating value of about 115,400 btu, and one gallon of automotive diesel fuel has a lower heating value of about 128,700 btu.

The efficiency of the 1.6 liter gas engine over the Normal Operating Range shown varies from 15.4% to 26.4% with a mean value in the low 20's%. The peak efficiency of this engine corresponds to 29.5%. Of course, the speed is limited to 50% of max value in this graph, so peak efficiency might be higher with higher engine speeds. However, these lower engine speeds are representative of real world driving conditions. Note that the efficiency drops dramatically at outputs below the Normal Operating Range.

The efficiency of historical steam cars were as follows: Stanley Steamer (6-8%), White (10-12%), Doble (10-12%), Pritchard (12-15%). The Stanley saw about 8-10 mpg on kerosene. The Doble saw about 10-12 mpg on kerosene and was a very heavy automobile at 6000 pounds. The peak steam temperature in all cases here were under 800F. Furthermore, these engine systems saw extreme thermal losses due to poor insulation, poor heat exchange, and distributing steam a distance from a steam generator to the expander (except the Pritchard unit that put the expander right next to the steam generator and did a good job of insulation). Kerosene shows about 124,000 btu per U.S. gallon (lower heating value). My research shows that the Pritchard steam car (converted '63 Ford Falcon) achieved 22.5 mpg on kerosene at 50 mph. According to the graph, this corresponds to roughly 20.8% efficiency for the gas engine. This is about 40% higher than the efficiency of the Pritchard engine. Therefore, if the '63 Falcon were powered by a typical gas engine of today, then it would consume about 71% of the fuel energy of the Pritchard car at 50 mph. This corresponds to about 29.5 mpg on gasoline. Note that the Ford Falcon was known to achieve fuel economy in the low 30's (mpg) during actual road tests designed to demonstrate optimal fuel economy (it was a competition with other car models during the 1960's, and the Ford Falcon won with its stock engine). In other words, my analysis here took figures from disparate sources and shows that they agree fairly well.

Now, consider an engine (any engine) that can power an automobile and show optimal thermal efficiency in the Normal Operating Range. If a modernized steam engine can be had to show similar dynamics of peak efficiency in the Normal Operating Range and with little variation in efficiency over a very wide output, yet achieve efficiency in the mid-20's or higher , then it would show superior fuel economy to existing gas cars. An even match requires the efficiency to increase over the Pritchard engine by about 40%. That is, the efficiency has to get the low 20's%. Now, the Doble steam car is known to achieve fuel economy during city driving roughly the same as modern gas SUV's of similar weight (6000 pounds). This was due to the fact that the Doble does not use steam when stopped or while coasting. This same dynamic would also be favorable for a modernized steam car. That is, city driving would be much higher in a highly efficient modern steam car as compared to conventional automobiles, and this would take the combined cycle fuel economy higher.

In summary, the efficiency of a modern steam car has to be 21-23% to match the fuel economy of conventional modern gas cars. Furthermore, if one deducts the roughly 5% loss from the torque converter, then there is additional favor for a steam engine system with direct drive. There is also the matter of superior fuel economy in city driving that was mentioned before, and this should take the combined cycle MPG higher all else equal. I emphasize that when considering the merits of a modern steam car with respect to fuel economy, then emphasizing the peak efficiency of the engine is a red herring. Now, throw in the other advantages including inherently quiet operation, multifuel capacity with less fuel refining, no transmission, and inherently clean emissions, then I believe the rational position is to consider the prospect of a modern steam automobile as having some merit.




Last edited by Buenijo; 03-27-2014 at 03:23 PM..
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Old 04-11-2014, 12:23 AM
 
33,387 posts, read 34,824,867 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tickyul View Post
Probably would be more inefficient than a modern ICE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buenijo View Post
I agree. The peak efficiency of a high compression modern ICE would most likely be higher than any piston steam engine.
peak thermal efficiency for a modern steam engine is in the 30% range. for you doubters, and anyone else interested, here is an interesting website;

Cyclone Power Technologies - How It Works

they actually have engines in operation, and they have a 5 second start cycle.
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