Imperial vs Lincoln vs Cad (best, seats, engine, towing)

[alte hornise]

This thread has jogged my memory a bit. In 1973, I was a management trainee at Chrysler Corporation's regional office near Pittsburgh. That summer the daughter of one of the top execs at Chrysler , may have even been the CEO, was getting married in Pittsburgh.
They wanted to have a number of Imperials to be collected for use of the wedding party & certain guests, and I recall how difficult it was to find the required number of Imperials needed, in a region that covered most of Western Penna., all of West Virginia, and, I believe, part of Eastern Ohio.
The dealers had so few Imperials on hand becuse so few were being sold; the demand was very low..
Methinks if Cadillac, or even Lincoln, was substituted for Chrysler, it would have been quite easy to locate the cars needed for the wedding.

[duster1979]

Wouldn't it stand to reason that if few were being sold there would be a surplus of the cars available?

[9162]

Originally Posted by rlrl

a 1973 Motor Trend road test of the Imperial, Cadillac and Lincoln found them to like the imperial because it was "more of a driver's car than the others". they also liked the "blend of the old and the new" I don't remember what was old about the Imp but the "new" was the Chronometer clock

they did complain about the "wind and tire noise, tho not excessive, it is noticeable". they went on to say that it was "inexcusable in a car of this size and class"

if you rode in a new 73 imp and you didn't know what a Lincoln and Cad was like to ride in, would anyone even notice the "tire noise" in the Imp? is tire noise considered to be that low frequency roar that you hear from the tires going over a harsh road surface or is it more of a hiss? would you think that difference in sound level would be significant?

Thom McCahill's test of the 73 Imp found him to say "even your mother in law would have difficulty faulting it for its comfort and quietness"

Motor Trend was always extremely bias. There will always be those who will be loyal to a particular model over another regardless. But for those that could remain objective, there was no similarity. The Lincoln gave the best ride, and was the most quiet. Not only did you not hear any wind or tire noise, but going through most pot holes was barely detectable in the Lincoln. The Caddy always suffered from more wallow, and understeer; but, try and argue with a loyal Caddy enthusiast and they'll never agree with you. The Eldorado gave a bit better handling than the DeVille/Fleetwood. The torsion bars, exclusive to the Imperial did give it a nice feel, but I'd still say the Lincoln still came out ahead in ride quality and workmanship; they were incredibly smooth, and unbelievably quiet--nothing like cars made today. Whether you chose the sedan/Town Car, or the Mark IV they were both at the peak. The line continued to improve until forced to downsize after 1979.

[Fleet]

Originally Posted by 9162

Motor Trend was always extremely bias. There will always be those who will be loyal to a particular model over another regardless. But for those that could remain objective, there was no similarity. The Lincoln gave the best ride, and was the most quiet. Not only did you not hear any wind or tire noise, but going through most pot holes was barely detectable in the Lincoln. The Caddy always suffered from more wallow, and understeer; but, try and argue with a loyal Caddy enthusiast and they'll never agree with you. The Eldorado gave a bit better handling than the DeVille/Fleetwood. The torsion bars, exclusive to the Imperial did give it a nice feel, but I'd still say the Lincoln still came out ahead in ride quality and workmanship; they were incredibly smooth, and unbelievably quiet--nothing like cars made today. Whether you chose the sedan/Town Car, or the Mark IV they were both at the peak. The line continued to improve until forced to downsize after 1979.

Motor Trend said of the early-'70s Cadillac/Lincoln/Imperial that the Imperial handled the best, the Lincoln the worst (had more wallow and body lean) and the Cadillac was in the middle of smooth ride and handling.

The Eldorado used torsion bars up to 1970. The '71 and later had coil springs. They were also nose-heavy since they were FWD.

[Fleet]

Originally Posted by sdlife619

I agree, but I also think the Imperials lost their way in a sense of styling in the 70's. Imperial never really had anything that was "uniquely" distinct about them. The 60's Imp's looked a lot like 60's Lincoln Continentals this obviously had a lot to do with Elwood Engel going over to Chrysler, the original stylist of the 61 Lincoln Continental. So it was sorta like a copy cat in a way even though the Imps looked really great back then. Also Lincoln had the best build quality out of the 3 throughout the 60's, just take a seat in a 61-63 Continental, open and close the doors, and you'll see what I mean. Not only that, but Lincoln was the only luxury car in those days to have such an intense testing program. A 12 mile road test of each Lincoln, everything was checked for working preciseness. The tester also made sure that they were no squeaks or rattles, that the cigar lighters lite up to a certain temperature, radio and AC/Heater controls operated smoothly without any sort of stickiness and much much more.

The engine was ran for like 2 hours, torn down for inspection and rebuilt, each transmission was tested for 30 mins, torn down for inspection and rebuilt.

The Cadillacs of the '60s were well-engineered and well-built. For example, this quote from a Jan., 1966 Motor Trend: (A coast-to-coast test) "Some 3,000 miles later, we returned with this top luxury machine, very much impressed with the car and with the way its put together."

"Our personal tour of Cadillac's vastly expanded facilities (they've increased working space by 50% and have added tons of new testing equipment) impressed us on the fact that this is a thoroughly tested automobile, probably far more refined than certain other luxury cars from across the pond whose makers couldn't begin to afford the facilities Cadillac has."

"Take, for instance, their one-of-a-kind road simulator. It holds a car on four hydraulic pistons and can be programmed to simulate any road surface, anywhere in the world. It finds out in 30 seconds what it took hours to find out on the old mechanical shakers. Cost of this device was $250,000. In addition, we saw a vast array of dynomometers, hot and cold rooms, wind tunnels, and component-testing setups."

"Watching the assembly line was another surprise. At maximum pace, 50 cars a day is tops, with two shifts. Care is taken in the building and a high degree of personalization goes into each Cadillac. Workers are allowed more time to do their respective jobs right."

I will also point out that the Cadillac did consistently better in the Consumer Reports frequency of repair charts during the 1960s. It rated better-than-average to average; Lincoln during the same era was average to worse-than-average.

It's hard to believe that Lincoln went that far out to make sure that their cars were the best in the biz, but they were literally on the brink of death in 1960, so the company went on a "Quality First" approach to prove to luxury car buyers that their cars were built better than anything that you could buy on the market in that time. Also they didn't want a bunch of different models either which can hurt quality control and prestige. There was no "Lower End" Lincoln, unlike Cadillac, you could buy a Caddy but without Power Door locks, Power seats, etc...so that was Lincoln's argument.

Lincoln could not compete with Cadillac regarding model choice. For example, for 1968 there were 11 models of Cadillacs to choose from. Including several coupes and hardtops, a convertible, a 9-passenger sedan and a limousine. The limousine was the only American-made factory built limousine. Cadillac also built convertibles well into the '70s while Lincoln discontinued their convertible after the 1967 model year.

If anything, Cadillac wasn't nearly as luxurious like many would like to believe in the early 70's. The 69-70 Cadillac's were better built, and better feeling cars than the cheaper feeling 71-73 Cad's and IMO, they were one of the best looking Cadillac's of the 70's with that huge "Shark" like grill and knife-edge chrome bumpers. Plus the 69-70 Cad's ride better than the flimsier feeling 71-73. I know, because I used to own a 72 Cad Sedan Deville, and test drove 69 Sedan Deville that was for sale nearby, and the difference was pretty noticeable.

Yes, I do like the feel of the '69/'70 Cadillacs. They weighed, in general, a little less than the '71-'73, so they didn't seem quite as bulky. I do like my '76 series Seventy-Five Limousine a lot, but that's probably because it is a limousine! I did drive a '69 9-passenger sedan and it rode very similar to my '76 limo.

[sdlife619]

"Our personal tour of Cadillac's vastly expanded facilities (they've increased working space by 50% and have added tons of new testing equipment) impressed us on the fact that this is a thoroughly tested automobile, probably far more refined than certain other luxury cars from across the pond whose makers couldn't begin to afford the facilities Cadillac has."

I believe this was a direct response to Lincoln's extreme commitment to quality control starting in 61. Cadillac's weren't that different from a Buick in those days from what I hear. 60's Lincoln on the other hand shared ZERO parts this includes the body and interior components, powertrain, with any other Ford vehicle. The T-bird was just built on the same assembly line, but the Lincolns were inspected extra carefully and had it's own program and testing procedures.

"Take, for instance, their one-of-a-kind road simulator. It holds a car on four hydraulic pistons and can be programmed to simulate any road surface, anywhere in the world. It finds out in 30 seconds what it took hours to find out on the old mechanical shakers. Cost of this device was $250,000. In addition, we saw a vast array of dynomometers, hot and cold rooms, wind tunnels, and component-testing setups."

Sometimes the best way to test a car, is to drive IT! Not every simulator can achieve the same results or real world conditions, and lets face it, Lincoln had the best testing and quality control program in the 60's hands down. Machines were used to test the cars of course, but also real men used their own eyes, ears and hands to make sure every Lincoln that was built, left the assembly plant with everything in perfectly working order.

"Watching the assembly line was another surprise. At maximum pace, 50 cars a day is tops, with two shifts. Care is taken in the building and a high degree of personalization goes into each Cadillac. Workers are allowed more time to do their respective jobs right."

Compared to Cadillac, Lincoln only built 25,000 sedans and like 2,000-3,000 Verts in 61, and usually hovered under the 40,000 mark throughout the 60's while Cadillac built like 200,000 + cars just about every year, it would be very hard for Cadillac to test each of their cars in the way Lincoln did with those huge numbers, not including the vastly different models that Cad was making. Lincoln kept it simple, just 2 models to choose from so it was much easier for Lincoln to detect problems.

I will also point out that the Cadillac did consistently better in the Consumer Reports frequency of repair charts during the 1960s. It rated better-than-average to average; Lincoln during the same era was average to worse-than-average.

This is possibly because Lincolns were very complex cars in the 60's, some things that were designed you kinda wondered "WTF" were they thinking?? Like the completely sealed electrical system, and how some of the wiring was designed and place throughout the car, the vast amounts of vacuum lines, the MEL 430 motor and how it's designed. I was just a unconventional car with it's own unique parts that cost a lot today, and compared to a Cadillac, the Caddy was far more basic and easier to work on. Lincoln Verts were also problematic, and parts are very expensive to repair or replace.

Lincoln could not compete with Cadillac regarding model choice. For example, for 1968 there were 11 models of Cadillacs to choose from. Including several coupes and hardtops, a convertible, a 9-passenger sedan and a limousine. The limousine was the only American-made factory built limousine. Cadillac also built convertibles well into the '70s while Lincoln discontinued their convertible after the 1967 model year.

This is my biggest complaint of Lincolns during that time, the lack of options for early 60's Coupe or higher trim levels for other Lincolns that could of made them even more luxurious. But it could've also been because Ford/Lincoln just didn't have the kind of assembly capacity like GM did to construct different model Lincolns, or it could have been a decision within the Exec's to keep things down to a level that was manageable to the brand to keep quality high.

I am not hating on 60's Cadillac's at ALL! I love em just as much as anyone, and I would love to own a 63 Coupe Deville someday, but I personally know from experience that the Lincolns were built better, even if they didn't have the performance that of Cadillac's. Now styling and cool factor, I would say that Cadillac's definitely had more flare and excitement than a Linc, and were sleeker designed cars overall. But each one is unique, Lincoln usually always being the understated "Bad Ass" Gangster ride.

The 70's luxury makes felt a little more generic and less "Special" IMO. But were still great cars.

[415_s2k]

The Imperial was the best looking IMHO; the Caddy looks cool too, but a little bit more gaudy. The Lincoln reminds me of a casket

[Fleet]

Originally Posted by sdlife619

I believe this was a direct response to Lincoln's extreme commitment to quality control starting in 61. Cadillac's weren't that different from a Buick in those days from what I hear. 60's Lincoln on the other hand shared ZERO parts this includes the body and interior components, powertrain, with any other Ford vehicle. The T-bird was just built on the same assembly line, but the Lincolns were inspected extra carefully and had it's own program and testing procedures.

As were Cadillacs.

Sometimes the best way to test a car, is to drive IT! Not every simulator can achieve the same results or real world conditions, and lets face it, Lincoln had the best testing and quality control program in the 60's hands down. Machines were used to test the cars of course, but also real men used their own eyes, ears and hands to make sure every Lincoln that was built, left the assembly plant with everything in perfectly working order.

I don't think Cadillac would have bought a $250,000 road simulator if it wasn't worth buying!
Cadillac testing was very detailed. There were exacting standards of quality. Cadillac paid special attention to precise manufacturing. For example, Cylinder bores were honed to a tolerance of .0002 (two ten-thousands) of an inch, the entire range between the largest and smallest bore. Bores were then inspected, measured and labelled. Each bore was then matched to a piston of the same size. The maximum clearance for a piston pin, which fastens the connecting rod to the piston, was .00015 (15 one-hundred-thousands) of an inch. Every crankshaft in a Cadillac engine was balanced (balanced while rotating).

Compared to Cadillac, Lincoln only built 25,000 sedans and like 2,000-3,000 Verts in 61, and usually hovered under the 40,000 mark throughout the 60's while Cadillac built like 200,000 + cars just about every year, it would be very hard for Cadillac to test each of their cars in the way Lincoln did with those huge numbers, not including the vastly different models that Cad was making. Lincoln kept it simple, just 2 models to choose from so it was much easier for Lincoln to detect problems.

Having just two models may have kept it simple for Lincoln, but it reduced variety for the buyer. As the repair records showed, it was possible to build many cars and still have good reliability.

This is possibly because Lincolns were very complex cars in the 60's, some things that were designed you kinda wondered "WTF" were they thinking?? Like the completely sealed electrical system, and how some of the wiring was designed and place throughout the car, the vast amounts of vacuum lines, the MEL 430 motor and how it's designed. I was just a unconventional car with it's own unique parts that cost a lot today, and compared to a Cadillac, the Caddy was far more basic and easier to work on. Lincoln Verts were also problematic, and parts are very expensive to repair or replace.

Cadillacs were complex cars, too, what with their industry-first climate control and automatic headlights in 1964, automatic level control in 1965 and variable-ratio power steering in 1966. It wasn't just electrical or wiring items that were troublesome for some years of Lincolns. It was also the automatic transmission ('64-'67 model years), exhaust system ('63-'64 and '66-'67) and front suspension ('63-'64 and '66-'68). The overall record for Lincoln (according to the April, 1969 issue of Consumer Reports) was:

1963- average
1964- average
1965- better than average
1966- worse than average
1967- worse than average
1968- worse than average

Compare with Cadillac:

1963- average
1964- average
1965- better than average
1966- better than average
1967- better than average
1968- better than average

This is my biggest complaint of Lincolns during that time, the lack of options for early 60's Coupe or higher trim levels for other Lincolns that could of made them even more luxurious. But it could've also been because Ford/Lincoln just didn't have the kind of assembly capacity like GM did to construct different model Lincolns, or it could have been a decision within the Exec's to keep things down to a level that was manageable to the brand to keep quality high.

Well, Imperials, too, did not offer much of choice in models.

I am not hating on 60's Cadillac's at ALL! I love em just as much as anyone, and I would love to own a 63 Coupe Deville someday, but I personally know from experience that the Lincolns were built better, even if they didn't have the performance that of Cadillac's. Now styling and cool factor, I would say that Cadillac's definitely had more flare and excitement than a Linc, and were sleeker designed cars overall. But each one is unique, Lincoln usually always being the understated "Bad Ass" Gangster ride.

Me, too. I like all of the big three luxury cars from that era... Cadillac, Lincoln and Imperial. I chose to buy Cadillacs, in part, due to the superior reliability, as can be seen above.

The 70's luxury makes felt a little more generic and less "Special" IMO. But were still great cars.

Yes, I prefer the '60s (with 1969 being my favorite year for Cadillac) but there were some good things about the '70s Cadillacs, too. Especially pre-'77 before the downsizing.

[alte hornise]

Originally Posted by duster1979

Wouldn't it stand to reason that if few were being sold there would be a surplus of the cars available?

Yes, one would think so, but apparently, Imperials were in short supply in my region. I really don't recall if dealers refused to stock them ( if that was even possible), or production was low.
I do know that there was a major scramble to have enough for the wedding, which certainly surprised me.

[sdlife619]

Fleet, even if Cadillac did do all the testing you said they did in the 60's, it still wasn't nearly as "In Depth"or as "involved" as Lincolns crazy 12 mile road test for each car before it left the factory. Even the power window motors and switches were dipped in latex rubber to protect them from water and moisture damage. Assemblyman couldn't even wear belts, because the fear of scratching the finish, so they all looked like doctor's with a bunch of tools in their hands. When the cars arrived at the dealer showrooms, the dealer didn't have to do anything besides add gas and that was it. No tinkering with the carb, or making adjustments. Lincoln also had the best warranty vs the Cad and Imp, it was 2 years or 24,000 miles which covered the entire car besides for general maintenance, this was unheard of in those times.


Regarding the Continentals transmissions, the ones from 61-65 were very unique and specially designed for the Conti's. They were called the "PCA" trans which was is their tag name. These actually are very good transmissions, but were also complex and much different than a typical C6 or Turbo 400. Parts are hard to come by, and usually are only found from Lincoln specialty shops, like Bakers Auto. These were heavy duty all cast iron trannys that weighed a ton, in my experience, they operate perfectly fine.

My 61 Continental has the original engine and trans in it, it shifts so smoothly and effortlessly that I am still amazed that nothing has given way in the last 5 years. I maintain my cars miraculously, and I believe it's been working out well so far.

The later 60's Lincolns slowly started to share more parts with other major Ford vehicles. The C6 and 460 engine was installed in all 66-77 (78 was optional for the 460) Lincolns, besides for for one year I believe which was the 462 in 67 which was a bastard block. Quality started to slip a little (but this was the case for all Domestic makes, less metal chrome, more plastic, cheap vinyl etc..), and they weren't as nice as the earlier models, like the 61-65's.


It's seems like the older the car is, the better the interior's and overall quality is. I found this out when I went from my 72 Deville, to my 68 Coupe Deville. The 68 was much a much better constructed car, and the interior was nicer feeling than the 72. Not to mention the 68 kicked the 72's ass in acceleration! For obvious reasons.

But still, I didn't like the plastic padded steering wheel, nor the cheap vinyl arm rest although the real Rosewood trim on the door panels were very nice . My favorite 60's Cadillac interior were the 63-66's which kept it "Chromy and Cool", but starting in 67, cost cutting took place and you could tell, quality slipped a bit. The government didn't help matters either.

I simply love the styling on the 63-64's, although I liked the stacked headlight on the 65-68, but they started to look odd to me overtime and a little disportionate. The 65-66 being fav's over the 67-68 because the bigger grill and chrome strips along the top of the fenders which made them look more solid and mean.