Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I already told you, the AWD systems in those cars can handle high horsepower without breaking. A good clutch is what most people need to handle high torque. A meathead can break any car with bad habits. People regularly build high horsepower Evos and DSMs because they can handle it with ready off the shelf parts and upgrades. Subaru transmissions are like glass in comparison. drivetrain...powertrain - engine/transmission/AWD system it is all related. One doesn't progress without the other. The reason you see way more high powered Evos and DSMs then you do Subarus is because the former is engineered better, tougher, and better suited for putting power to the ground - stock or otherwise.
I already told you, the AWD systems in those cars can handle high horsepower without breaking. A good clutch is what most people need to handle high torque. A meathead can break any car with bad habits. People regularly build high horsepower Evos and DSMs because they can handle it with ready off the shelf parts and upgrades. Subaru transmissions are like glass in comparison. drivetrain...powertrain - engine/transmission/AWD system it is all related. One doesn't progress without the other. The reason you see way more high powered Evos and DSMs then you do Subarus is because the former is engineered better, tougher, and better suited for putting power to the ground - stock or otherwise.
Which is it? Are they glass or not?
It's quite easy to progress one without the other. There's lots of dyno queen EVOs/STis. If putting down power means fourth gear on a dyno to you, they're fine. On the other hand talk to people running 8 second quarter miles and they'll all tell you the same thing, even with rebuilt transmissions, welded center diffs, and so on drivetrain is the problem. Baby the launch and make up for the poor 60' times in the second half of the quarter. Dog box and sequentials are popular even though most of the people racing Evos aren't making anything near this 1000 hp stock block with a clutch upgrade that you seem to think is possible. At that point it really doesn't matter what it was engineered to do from the factory. It matters what the aftermarket support is.
For example, most of the hill climb EVOs you'll see start going sequential WAY before 1000 HP (never seen a 1000HP one actually, no point as they'd be slower). Most of those cars are privateers. They're not necessarily just going for the $20,000 transmission because it shifts quicker. They don't have huge pockets like factory WRC teams or something where cost isn't an issue. Mostly they're putting them in after destroying a first or second transmission. Getting power to the ground means something different to them than gentle roll on in fourth gear on a dyno. $20,000 is too expensive for most weekend drag strip junkies. They just baby the launch and shift slow.
That was sort of my prediction of the Ford Focus RS that it comes factory tuned near the limit of the provided hardware. Same thing Ford did with the ST tuning it near the max of it's potential. In order to gain any big performance gains it would require dumping a lot more money to get more power. As with most Fords today, reliance of driver assist to make the car fun to drive comes at a cost to the ease of modification. I'm not talking about upgrading the exhaust and intake that's not much of an upgrade.
I disagree, The Focus ST was making about 210-220whp stock, we're seeing 250-280whp with E30 tunes depending on other hard parts.
The k03 is probably the biggest restriction on that vehicle, the motor itself seems to be holding up fine. I'm sure the motor could handle well over 300whp once they upgrade the turbo and exhaust. Excessive torque or a poor tune probably blows the most motors.
My Mazda 2.3 DISI turbo is making 380whp 350wtq on stock motor, transmission, clutch and catback. Approaching 160k miles, been on a larger turbo for the past 30-40k miles. Got tuned by Freektune who is a certified Cobb tuner. Really made the difference in longevity.
It's quite easy to progress one without the other.
No it isn't. Is that what Subaru guys do? Talk about how tough their drivetrains are while they struggle to get their engines to hold together past 500hp? Lols. And no Evos typically aren't dyno queens. There are hard core drag cars at the highest levels of power that they can produce. It doesn't matter what some people choose to do with their cars, the platform has proven itself capable at all levels of performance that someone is capable of squeezing out of it. For every 1 Subaru putting down 500, there's probably 10 Evos or DSMs laying down 600+.
Quote:
Evos aren't making anything near this 1000 hp stock block with a clutch upgrade that you seem to think is possible.
Don't lie and put words in my mouth because I never said that. A clutch upgrade is all most people need putting down 400-600hp. However, the stock block and crank CAN handle a thousand hp. The stock bottom can handle ~550. That's with the 4G63, the 4B11 isn't quite there yet, but is still stronger than the EJs. The rest of your post just sounds like a bunch of regurgitated forum fanboy stuff that doesn't mean anything. Especially coming from someone who admits he doesn't know much about either car.
No it isn't. Is that what Subaru guys do? Talk about how tough their drivetrains are while they struggle to get their engines to hold together past 500hp? Lols. And no Evos typically aren't dyno queens. There are hard core drag cars at the highest levels of power that they can produce. It doesn't matter what some people choose to do with their cars, the platform has proven itself capable at all levels of performance that someone is capable of squeezing out of it. For every 1 Subaru putting down 500, there's probably 10 Evos or DSMs laying down 600+.
No clue. I don't know STis that well.
People build cars for different reasons. When I had a DSM, it was not a drag car. I wouldn't have bothered with coilovers and brakes on a drag car. I also would have gone with a much larger turbo than a 16G. I had more money in suspension and brakes than in the engine. I don't find rag racing that fun so I focused more on what I did enjoy which was autocross and open track days.
Quote:
Don't lie and put words in my mouth because I never said that. A clutch upgrade is all most people need putting down 400-600hp. However, the stock block and crank CAN handle a thousand hp. The stock bottom can handle ~550. That's with the 4G63, the 4B11 isn't quite there yet, but is still stronger than the EJs. The rest of your post just sounds like a bunch of regurgitated forum fanboy stuff that doesn't mean anything. Especially coming from someone who admits he doesn't know much about either car.
Can the stock block handle 550 or 1000? That's just a slight difference. Let's see all these examples of 1000 HP EVOs on a stock block. Shouldn't be hard since there's so many of them out there.
Can the stock block handle 550 or 1000? That's just a slight difference. Let's see all these examples of 1000 HP EVOs on a stock block. Shouldn't be hard since there's so many of them out there.
You do not know the difference between stock block and stock bottom.
By block, I just mean bare block (and crank) - as sourced from any Mitsubishi dealer. There is not a market for aftermarket blocks for Mitsubishis because the stock one is cheap, easy to find, and can handle what 99% of people need. There are some aftermarket cranks because they don't have much market penetration.
Bottom end includes pistons, rods, rings, etc. along with the block and the crank.
While you're being cute about there being "so many" 1000hp Mitsus out there, you'd be hard pressed to find any Subarus at that level.
You do not know the difference between stock block and stock bottom.
By block, I just mean bare block (and crank) - as sourced from any Mitsubishi dealer. There is not a market for aftermarket blocks for Mitsubishis because the stock one is cheap, easy to find, and can handle what 99% of people need. There are some aftermarket cranks because they don't have much market penetration.
Bottom end includes pistons, rods, rings, etc. along with the block and the crank.
While you're being cute about there being "so many" 1000hp Mitsus out there, you'd be hard pressed to find any Subarus at that level.
That would be what most people aside from you most commonly refer to as the core, the lump of steel or whatever material it's made out. Anyone who builds engines refers to the block and bottom interchangeably. Eg, dozens of companies will sell "race blocks" which consist of a core (often cryogenically treated, bored, and resurfaced especially for anything intended to make 1,000 hp -- and thus no longer stock even if you just like being contrarian because it's how you get your jollies). The pricing includes a usable core you haven't punched a piston through or otherwise destroyed. The tuner world calls this a block. You may not, but the vast majority of the automotive tuning world does.
It's not like 1000 hp mitsubishi's are common or anything but they certainly exist. None of them have stock blocks. No one but you struggles with this terminology. 621whp and 553Tq STOCK BLOCK by Ostar Motorsports | DSMtuners
You could quibble about the camshafts meaning it's a stock block or not. Some people consider that part of the block (or bottom end) and some do not.
While I don't really mind informing you what the tuning world means by a stock block and what a drivetrain is as opposed to powertrain is, I could do without your attitude. As I said, 600 HP on the stock block has been done. 1000 HP is not. There's infinitely more 1000 HP STis than 1000 HP DSM/EVOs on stock blocks as there aren't any 1000 HP DSM/EVOs on stock blocks and there are at least a few 1000 HP STIs.
That's what it was commonly referred to among in the community. Camshafts are in the head, so no, they wouldn't be part of the bottom end. I don't get what posting one link to one car is supposed to prove. I haven't struggled with anything except figure out what it is you are talking about because any time you get confused or cornered, you move goalposts and start talking about WRC cars or something else irrelevant. Comparing what one community calls a core vs a stock block is pretty silly because there isn't a ready supplier of aftermarket blocks for Mitsubishis. lol, and by aftermarket I don't mean a cryo treated Mitsubishi core...I mean a clean sheet aftermarket piece, like say from dart:
The links you supplied above are to short blocks. Short block = bottom end. It is described in those links that you aren't just buying a bare block, like in the JEGS link I provided above.
Conext is very important.
We can go around in circles all you want, but the bottom line is you haven't done anything to prove that Mitusbishis have weak drivetrains, especially compared to Subarus. I provided you with all the context required to know that I wasn't suggesting you could slap a big turbo and fuel on a Mitsubishi with a stock engine and go make 1000hp.
Last edited by Tourian; 06-27-2016 at 02:56 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
. Still, a singular example doesn't really make much of a dent in the overall trend.
