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you do realize that the 5.4 produces all that horsepower with aide of a blower, right?
Speaking of that, I remember the modifications being done to the 426-Hemi (the race Hemi) in the late-'60s and early-'70s... they were able to get 700-750 horsepower on pump gas, unblown. Quite a feat.
I also know that the '50s Mopar Hemi quickly became the first choice in most applications where absolute maximum horsepower was needed, regardless of engine size and weight.
And I also remember a quote from Ed Donovan (of Donovan Engineering in Torrance, Calif.): "I believe that the 392-cu-in version of the early Hemi, used in 1957-'58, is the best all-around stock-based racing engine in the world- bar none." (Quote from the early-'70s.)
I would consider the GN as one of 'cars of today'.. Due to the fact of the forced induction, ecm controlled F.I. and the other technological features of the car. I wanted something different and I can tell ya that I am have way more fun rowing the gears with the top down in the Mustang..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deez Nuttz
Frank has a good point.
Todays cars are all butt ugly and look like they were beaten with an ugly stick. But they also handle better and run better than cars of yesteryear.
The 5.4 might be forced induction but that allows it to make good low end grunt and hp without having to be an untamed animal.
Back in the old days, to get the same power meant you had to run a big cam and big heads and (usually) low rear gears without an overdrive. That usually meant for a high winding engine that couldn't come stock with a/c.
So Frank you'll take todays cars anyday...is that why you sold your GN?
but that 700 hp engine was not even close to being street worthy or legal. You can buy a 750 hp (REAL HP, not 60's hp) today and it will still get 22 mg on the highway and you can drive across the country in it. I know cause I lived this.. I did the 12:1 compression, 700" lift cammed, 4.56 reared muscle cars. to fun, they were hardly streetable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleet
Speaking of that, I remember the modifications being done to the 426-Hemi (the race Hemi) in the late-'60s and early-'70s... they were able to get 700-750 horsepower on pump gas, unblown. Quite a feat.
I also know that the '50s Mopar Hemi quickly became the first choice in most applications where absolute maximum horsepower was needed, regardless of engine size and weight.
And I also remember a quote from Ed Donovan (of Donovan Engineering in Torrance, Calif.): "I believe that the 392-cu-in version of the early Hemi, used in 1957-'58, is the best all-around stock-based racing engine in the world- bar none." (Quote from the early-'70s.)
but that 700 hp engine was not even close to being street worthy or legal. You can buy a 750 hp (REAL HP, not 60's hp) today and it will still get 22 mg on the highway and you can drive across the country in it. I know cause I lived this.. I did the 12:1 compression, 700" lift cammed, 4.56 reared muscle cars. to fun, they were hardly streetable.
The same could be said about the Ford 427 cammer engine you were talking about... not street worthy or legal.
However, there is a story in a Mopar book I have. A street rodder who put a 392-Hemi engine in a street rod (a "Brand-X- bodied glass replica '23).
The Hemi is modified and has a supercharger and dynoed at 980 hp. It is fully street-legal and ran a 9.04 sec @ 164 mph 1/4 mile. A photo of it even shows the license plate: 689GRN (California plates).
Also, I have seen highly modified cars at the weekly car gathering I stop by at. I don't know the exact specs, but they are most likely running 12:1 (or higher) compression, 700" lift cam and 4.56 (or even deeper) rear end. They can barely idle which makes the car shake, are very loud, but they are street legal and driven into the car show.
Also, I have seen highly modified cars at the weekly car gathering I stop by at. I don't know the exact specs, but they are most likely running 12:1 (or higher) compression, 700" lift cam and 4.56 (or even deeper) rear end. They can barely idle which makes the car shake, are very loud, but they are street legal and driven into the car show.
They might be street legal, but what Frank was getting at is those rumpity bumpity engines are rather "untame animals" for a lack of better words. Here's why:
On those n/a engines the only way to make power (besides NOS or forced induction) is to add a lot more lift and more duration in an attempt to induce more air/fuel in. Which usually means you have to cam the engine to the moon.
When you do that, it pushes the power band up in the upper rpms (3500 rpm, 4000 rpm, 4500 rpm, etc.) so then you pretty much have to run a low set of rear end gears (4.10, 4.30, 4.56) so the engine will be in the power range it needs to be in order to make power and not be a slug.
A byproduct of all of this is the radical lopey idle that everyone loves (which really means the engine is inefficient below a certain rpm), but can be a bit of a PITA when you're sitting at the light and having to blip the throttle to keep it running.
On top of having to sometimes run expensive high octane racing fuel, a typical a/c compressor will not live under the high rpms these engines will see the most of.
So, there goes your a/c, your good idle, your 93 octane pump fuel and your street docile manners.
On a forced induction engine, instead of the engine trying to suck in what it can, you're instead pushing the air into the engine. That equates to the power being made down low so you can run your a/c and still idle at the stop light.
To compare and contrast, my last hot rod was a 1971 Chevelle with a 396 and the one I have now is a 1987 Regal T turbocharged V6.
The Chevelle had a 240/246 duration cam with a .574/.578 lift. To operate it required the use of a 3000 stall and a 4.10 rear end. Tranny was a TH350 auto. It's rpm range was 3000 on up to 6000. It was awesome, had some blazing torque off the line but trying to drive it down an interstate got old, quick....the rpms were up there singing, consuming all that extra fuel and I probably would have burned up an a/c compressor had I tried running a/c. At the light it shook the fenders but I had to blip the throttle every so often to keep it idling, and starting it required a few tries/pumps from the pedal. But it sure was a panty dropper.
The Regal can idle at 800 rpm, cruise down the interstate at 2000, with the AC on, while getting 25 mpg.....until I stomp the pedal....then when the boost comes on all the sudden I'm running away from whatever Vette/Mustang/Camaro I want to....plus with the fuel injection it fires right up and stays idling at the light.
I miss my Chevelle but I have to give credit where it's due. That's why one day I'd love to build another Chevelle and keep it original outside with an original interior, but retrofit it with a late model fuel injected engine with an overdrive and I'd upgrade the suspension to 4 wheel discs and the best performance suspension I could install....to make the car handle like it's on rails.
Oh, I know they are not practical and are hard to drive on the street. But many gearheads do so anyway!
BTW, the stock specs for the engine in my '69 Cadillac (472-cu-in, 10.5:1 compression) are pretty impressive:
Duration----- 312/308 degrees intake/exhaust
Lift---------- .440/.454" intake/exhuast
You would be surprised how many highly modified cars are street-legal and street-driven. One with huge superchargers sticking up through the hood, extremely wide rear tires, etc.
oh yea guys.. Im not saying that driving the 4.56 geared solid lifter big block ain't fun. Cause it is.. And the sound is pure evil. But they are hard to enjoy on any kind of road trip.. They are fun to take to local cruises..
Heavy Chevy! Posi-traction! Gonna wipe those Fords and Mopars off the road, all they gonna see is Chevy tailights.
I have owned almost every popular motor out there and one that stands out from the rest is the 351 cleveland it was the best running motor ive had os seen and believe me many chevys and mopars have seen my tail lights and thats because of the giant 4v closed chamber heads and 2.19 intake valves. it has nothing to do with the brand. Any motor with that kind of heads is going to kick a** and can be made to outrun the next one and ford did the 351C right just ask anyone that raced bob gliddens cleveland as i do recall in oklahoma and i was there when he sent jenkins big block vega to the trailer he was running the ford cleveland a small block. If chevy or mopar would have made heads like that then they would have had a better chance against it but they didnt. its not rocket science just common sence. My friend in kansas city has a 65 stang with a stock stroke 289 and he drags the bumper and runs a 10.02 so any motor can be made to run. He leaves the line at 9000 rpm and has ran it for four years with stock reworked rods and many cars of all brands have seen his tail lights. All i can say is after running the cleveland i will never run anything else again.
I have owned almost every popular motor out there and one that stands out from the rest is the 351 cleveland it was the best running motor ive had os seen and believe me many chevys and mopars have seen my tail lights and thats because of the giant 4v closed chamber heads and 2.19 intake valves. it has nothing to do with the brand. Any motor with that kind of heads is going to kick a** and can be made to outrun the next one and ford did the 351C right just ask anyone that raced bob gliddens cleveland as i do recall in oklahoma and i was there when he sent jenkins big block vega to the trailer he was running the ford cleveland a small block. If chevy or mopar would have made heads like that then they would have had a better chance against it but they didnt. its not rocket science just common sence. My friend in kansas city has a 65 stang with a stock stroke 289 and he drags the bumper and runs a 10.02 so any motor can be made to run. He leaves the line at 9000 rpm and has ran it for four years with stock reworked rods and many cars of all brands have seen his tail lights. All i can say is after running the cleveland i will never run anything else again.
Your kind of late to reply to this thread but since you did I'll comment also.
Bob Glidden or maybe it was Wayne Gapp and Jack Roush the raised the exhaust ports ports on the Cleveland heads. before that they were not competitive with the sb Chevys. Years later Robert Yates redesigned those heads to really make them work and now others have jumped on the Cleveland band wagon. But to every Ford lovers elation the Fr9 has made the Cleveland heads obsolete at least in circle track racing.
Now the Coyote is the hot engine from Ford at least for those of us who prefer small cube NA engines.
Don't forget it takes more than just big valves to make an engine breath good. Those 429 Shotgun Ford Mustangs were absolute pigs on the street it was in the high speed wide open racing in NASCAR where those engines ran strong.
Good to see you are a Ford guy but don't get carried away with the myth that the Cleveland dominated everybody it was only the pros back in the day that really made that engine work.
I forgot how this discussion got started, but I have to note that neither the 396 or the 390 was considered a real good performance engine in the day. For whatever reason, the 396, as issued by Chevy, had a reputation for "blowing up" (I don't remember if there was a specific failure mechanism like slinging a rod, or what) but compared to the quite similar 427 they were considered fragile.
The 390, I actually know at least one problem with it, was/is the way the oiling system is set up, if you run sustained higher RPM, it tends to pool oil on top of the heads, starving the main bearings and big-end bearings of lube when they really need it. Knock, knock, who's there? It's rod...
Ford to their credit offered the 427 side-oiler on a similar block but with a different oiling system, but these were very costly IIRC they had problems casting the blocks and had an unsustainable reject rate. It's hard to make money when you have to re-melt say 1/3 of the blocks you cast, and can be a problem as your QA program is being stressed, they have to find all the bad blocks on the first go, not let them be assembled into engines that will just have to be torn back down, and had damn well better not let any such engine find it's way into a car and to a dealer...
Really both of these, IMHO are more of truck engines than muscle car engines.
The recent/current production big cube engines from both Chevy and Ford are way better performance engines, and well they should be, after 30 or so years of engineering work, one has a right to expect some progress.
Final comment for the nay-sayers who think 5-buck gas makes such engines obsolete - IMHO not at all true. Certainly the C6 Corvette, if driven conservatively, if you have the iron (or maybe better yet titanium) willpower to keep your foot out of it, can cover miles quite economically. Probably the 'stang can too, but I have not checked up on that. In a nutshell, these big powerful engines, designed to breathe and "carburate" even at RPMs in the low teens, can be paired with a 6-speed transola that allows for good (OK, even great) standing start performance, yet provides a very "tall" cruising gearing, plus these cars have good aerodynamics, so if you want to get good MPG out of it, you certainly can.
They won't beat a Pius for MPG of course, but IMHO they come close enough whilst being real cars that you can actually enjoy driving. Given the choice between a day as a lion or 1000 years as a sheep, I can understand how some could choose "sheep" - but here we have more like 750 years as a lion to 1000 years as a sheep, so for me at least making the "quality choice" is a no-brainer...
Your mileage, of course, may vary...
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Chevy 396 or ford 390
