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The F-4 Phantom was designed without guns the premiss being that air-to-air combat in the 1960's would be fought with missiles. That did not stop the Phantoms for racking up an impressive air to air combat record there were numerous instances were guns on the fighters were critical.
Recently the Air Force as declared that the F-35 Strike Fighter is woefully incapable instances of close ariel combat losing with regularity to the F-16 that is just one of the aircraft it is slated to replace. Again the Air Force claims just like the F-4, such a capability is unnecessary in the future of ariel combat.
At the price tag of $400 billion for the project. I wonder if they are right.
The Chinese and the Russians are still making dogfighters. I'm not up to speed on what air-to-air missile systems are intended for the F-35, but they'd better be pretty damned good, because if the 5th generation fighters that China and Russia are rolling out get in close, we're going to lose some pretty expensive planes pretty fast.
It's funny (not haha) that you post about the F4 and the F16 together. When I worked on F4's they had two J79 engines. We were photo recon, did not carry weapons so the jets were significantly lighter (as much as can be said for a flying rock). Our jets could outrun anything. ANYTHING. (including F/A-18's. The F16, at that time had one J79 engine. Come to find out, that little lawndart was the only thing in the air that ever outran our jets. Well, done, little brother.
I think the military doesn't do what makes sense. It's used by politicians for various purposes. Like closing state-of-the-art, brand new schools in Millington TN and moving them to Pensacola into old facilities. (as another example)
The Chinese and the Russians are still making dogfighters. I'm not up to speed on what air-to-air missile systems are intended for the F-35, but they'd better be pretty damned good, because if the 5th generation fighters that China and Russia are rolling out get in close, we're going to lose some pretty expensive planes pretty fast.
Agreed. We have to have an administration that understands the need to keep up, and one that wants to win.
Serious question...but when was the last time a US fighter scored an air-to-air kill using a cannon??
The Gulf War.
The Air Force can't take credit for the F4 not being gunned, that was a Navy decision. The aircraft was originally designed as an interceptor for fleet defense and not really as a turn and burn dogfighter. The strategic brains at the time (mid-1950s) declared that guns were obsolete and the future was in missiles. They weren't totally correct.
The Air Force adopted the F4 (partly because of money issues) at the urging of Defense Secretary McNamara and because the AF brass saw the Phantom would fulfill some roles they needed. One of the first things they did was order a variant with an integral cannon after experimenting with a drop tank gun pod.
It's funny (not haha) that you post about the F4 and the F16 together. When I worked on F4's they had two J79 engines. We were photo recon, did not carry weapons so the jets were significantly lighter (as much as can be said for a flying rock). Our jets could outrun anything. ANYTHING. (including F/A-18's. The F16, at that time had one J79 engine. Come to find out, that little lawndart was the only thing in the air that ever outran our jets. Well, done, little brother.
I think the military doesn't do what makes sense. It's used by politicians for various purposes. Like closing state-of-the-art, brand new schools in Millington TN and moving them to Pensacola into old facilities. (as another example)
Not to pick nits, but the USAF F-16 never had the J79. Only Pratt and Whitney F-100-200 and later -220E in F-16A and B models, as well as Block 25, 32 and 42 F-16C and D models, and General Electric F-110-100 in Block 30 and 40 F-16Cs and Ds. Later models got upgraded F-100-229 (Block 42 and 52) and F-110-129 (some Block 30s, 40s and the mighty Block 50). The F-16/J79 was an export-only option that never saw service.
As for being able to outrun anything, we (F-16) were not the fastest kid on the block. I had an F-4 WSO in my pilot training class who as a WSO was involved in a chase of a pair of F-111s (the F-4 was marginally faster) and then locked up a Reserve F-105 (way faster than anything out there). Fastest I ever had an F-16 to was Mach 1.86 on an FCF, which is a totally clean jet, no missiles, rails or tanks, and it took a while and a lot of fuel to get there.
As for the gun argument, the M61 in the F-16 is an air-to-air gun. The F-35 25mm GAU-22 gun is a larger caliber than the 20mm F-16 gun, and should have a much better accuracy. It offers 4-5 seconds of firing at a reduced rate, the same rate of fire as the A-10 and the same firing availability as the M61. It's a lighter version of the gun the Harrier already has. The biggest problem we had with the M61 was its dispersion, which was like firing a shotgun, and its trajectory shift and gravity drop; a lot of the time the 20mm wasn't spinning so much as tumbling through the air if fired from long ranges. The A-10 and F-35 (and AV-8) guns are optimized for air-to-surface firing. If an A-10 round ever hit anything it would cut it in half. If an F-16 (or A-7, F-4, F-15, etc.) cannon round ever hit anything on the ground... well, if...
Last edited by SluggoF16; 09-18-2015 at 08:59 AM..
Searching through records and only see reference to a couple A-10 kills on helicopters and an F-15 strafing a parked IL-76.
Ok. That would have been the last opportunity.
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