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Majority of A-10's downed during Desert Storm were hit by SAM. Of the six combat losses only one is confirmed to have been a AAA loss, 4 are confirmed SAM losses, 1 is unknown suspected SAM/AAA. That was from 8,100 sorties
3 F-16's following a similar mission profile were shot down, they had 13,340 sorties all by SAM.
So the survivability of the F-16 in Desert Storm was more than three times the A-10. If the A-10 had the same number of sorties as the F-16 we'd be looking at around 10 losses (9.88 to be precise).
Of course, however, that is an airman's point of view. What is the ground liaison officer's point of view of the worth of those F-16 sorties compared to the A-10 sorties?
And I ask that question honestly, because I can see at least one factor--reaction speed to station--being in favor of the F-16...but I don't know how comparatively well the F-16 does (by real experience) when it's on station.
Of course, however, that is an airman's point of view. What is the ground liaison officer's point of view of the worth of those F-16 sorties compared to the A-10 sorties?
And I ask that question honestly, because I can see at least one factor--reaction speed to station--being in favor of the F-16...but I don't know how comparatively well the F-16 does (by real experience) when it's on station.
I was for three years an Air Liaison Officer (ground forward air controller) and an airborne FAC in the OV-10. I controlled an A-4 and an A-6, A-7s, AV-8s, A-10s, an AC-130, F-4s, F-16s, F/A-18s, and a B-52. I also controlled a few German Alpha Jets and an F-15E. That latter crew was worthless, but then I doubt they could spell CAS. Of them all, the A-4 (a Marine Reservist) the A-7s (Navy), AV-8s and the A-10s clearly knew what they were doing. The F-16s did CAS because it was something they had to do as part of their DOC, but did not excel at it. The F/A-18s were deadly accurate when they aimed at the right target. The F-4s were dropping cluster bombs and couldn't miss. But they did. The AC-130 annihilated the targets. And the B-52 and A-6 were dropping offset radar bombs through a 1000 foot overcast. They hit nearby the target.
Fast forward to now, and what I see at the range is the F-16 and F-18 pilots really know their stuff. They have the tools to ID and attack tiny targets (like two mannequins emplacing a simulated IED near a station wagon) with great accuracy. I have to replace mannequins and station wagons quite a bit. (One had its head blown off by an inert GBU-12... I replaced the head with a windshield washer fluid jug... his name is, of course, Jughead.) The F-16s can provide 45-60 minutes of playtime before returning home. That's not as long as an A-10 but is much more responsive. And they can accept the latest datalink from JTACs on the ground.
Majority of A-10's downed during Desert Storm were hit by SAM. Of the six combat losses only one is confirmed to have been a AAA loss, 4 are confirmed SAM losses, 1 is unknown suspected SAM/AAA. That was from 8,100 sorties
3 F-16's following a similar mission profile were shot down, they had 13,340 sorties all by SAM.
So the survivability of the F-16 in Desert Storm was more than three times the A-10. If the A-10 had the same number of sorties as the F-16 we'd be looking at around 10 losses (9.88 to be precise).
Only two F-16s were hit by SAMs. The third loss was an interesting one, and as a weapons officer later in my career it was extensively studied. Attacking a target in Kuwait, the pilot dropped a pair of 2000-lb Mk-84s with a proximity fuze, which functioned shortly after it left the aircraft. Not good to have 1000 lbs of tritonal blow up behind and under you. Colonel Ball limped the jet to the Persian Gulf where he ejected.
I was for three years an Air Liaison Officer (ground forward air controller) and an airborne FAC in the OV-10. I controlled an A-4 and an A-6, A-7s, AV-8s, A-10s, an AC-130, F-4s, F-16s, F/A-18s, and a B-52. I also controlled a few German Alpha Jets and an F-15E. That latter crew was worthless, but then I doubt they could spell CAS. Of them all, the A-4 (a Marine Reservist) the A-7s (Navy), AV-8s and the A-10s clearly knew what they were doing. The F-16s did CAS because it was something they had to do as part of their DOC, but did not excel at it. The F/A-18s were deadly accurate when they aimed at the right target. The F-4s were dropping cluster bombs and couldn't miss. But they did. The AC-130 annihilated the targets. And the B-52 and A-6 were dropping offset radar bombs through a 1000 foot overcast. They hit nearby the target.
Fast forward to now, and what I see at the range is the F-16 and F-18 pilots really know their stuff. They have the tools to ID and attack tiny targets (like two mannequins emplacing a simulated IED near a station wagon) with great accuracy. I have to replace mannequins and station wagons quite a bit. (One had its head blown off by an inert GBU-12... I replaced the head with a windshield washer fluid jug... his name is, of course, Jughead.) The F-16s can provide 45-60 minutes of playtime before returning home. That's not as long as an A-10 but is much more responsive. And they can accept the latest datalink from JTACs on the ground.
Thanks very much. Do you see any reason this capability can't be transferred to the F-35?
Only two F-16s were hit by SAMs. The third loss was an interesting one, and as a weapons officer later in my career it was extensively studied. Attacking a target in Kuwait, the pilot dropped a pair of 2000-lb Mk-84s with a proximity fuze, which functioned shortly after it left the aircraft. Not good to have 1000 lbs of tritonal blow up behind and under you. Colonel Ball limped the jet to the Persian Gulf where he ejected.
Sorry my bad, had the data from the GAO report, and somehow mentally munged the data.
Both aircraft have their merits but I'm rooting for the A-10. I think they should build an A-10 successor instead of all this common airframe stuff -- looks like it would've been cheaper too.
Both aircraft have their merits but I'm rooting for the A-10. I think they should build an A-10 successor instead of all this common airframe stuff -- looks like it would've been cheaper too.
Sorry my bad, had the data from the GAO report, and somehow mentally munged the data.
It wasn't common knowledge. I have had a few beers with Mike Roberts, who was a POW after the Baghdad raid, and had lunch with Ed Tullia at Luke AFB when I was an instructor there. Ed is the guy who dodged several SA-6s after they were fired at him.
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