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I'm wondering which star players basically won championships all by themselves?
Jordan had Pippen
Magic had Worthy/Kareem
Isiah had Dumars/Laimbeer
KG had Allen/Pierce
Bird had McHale
Lebron had Wade/Bosh
Duncan had Manu/Gino
Kobe had Shaq/Pau
Maybe Hakeem when the Rockets won in '94? His best teammate was probably Otis Thorpe or Vernon Maxwell.
We can play this game with Lebron too. Lebron didn't win anything until he joined Wade and Bosh in Miami therefore, Lebron has yet to really win a ring.
The fact is, for those thinking without bias - the Bulls were quickly improving when young Jordan joined the team. They went from 27-55 to 40-42 with Jordan leading them. In '88 they continued improving to 50-32 and you would be silly to think that was simply because Pippen joined the team with his monstrous 7.9 ppg/3.8 rpg/2.1 apg OFF THE BENCH. What you fail to realize is that the Bulls picked up Sam Vincent and Horace Grant that season.
Prior to picking up Vincent and inserting him into the starting lineup, the Bulls were 31-24 and losers in 8 of their last 13 games. They were on track to have a decent season, but not a 50 win season. With Vincent they finished the regular season 19-8. He averaged 13.6 ppg/8.7 apg as a starter. Pippen was a minor contributor that season, but he was not the reason the Bulls had a winning season.
1984-5: 38-44 (lost 1-3 in playoffs)
1985-6: 30-52 (lost 0-3 in playoffs)
1986-7: 40-42 (lost 0-3 in playoffs)
2000-1: 37-45 (no playoffs)
2001-2: 37-45 (no playoffs)
I'm wondering which star players basically won championships all by themselves?
Jordan had Pippen
Magic had Worthy/Kareem
Isiah had Dumars/Laimbeer
KG had Allen/Pierce
Bird had McHale
Lebron had Wade/Bosh
Duncan had Manu/Gino
Kobe had Shaq/Pau
Maybe Hakeem when the Rockets won in '94? His best teammate was probably Otis Thorpe or Vernon Maxwell.
Jordan had Pippen (HoF), Rodman (HoF), George Gervin (HoF), Paxson, Kerr, Woolridge (23ppg), Dailey (16ppg), Oakley, Grant, Cartwright, Armstrong, Kukoc, Longley, Harper, etc...... and played in the weakest era in NBA history.
Of all the current players, I think Kobe is the only one who can be compared to Jordan even remotely.
James? Not even close. The east is weak and has been for many years. Not only has it been weak but the "strong" teams always seemed to suffer injuries which made his path to the finals easier, hence the losing record. He would not have gone to Miami or come back to Cleveland if deals weren't already in place for a built team for him already. Would Kobe or Jordan done that?
If it weren't for a lucky bounce and Ray Allen 3 pointer, James would have 1 championship.
At 30 and having come straight from HS with a lot of long post season runs, I think his better years are behind him. He seems to be more of a physical bully than a skill player and if he had played in the 80's and 90's, he'd been dealt with more appropriately than in the much softer current era.
The difference between him and guys like Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Bird, etc. is that those guys didn't have to jump ship somewhere else and collude with buddies to win. Those guys were leaders.
The issue I have with that is the message it sends to young kids: instead of riding it out and working hard, just go somewhere else where things will be easier for you.
For those under 30, you have no idea what NBA basketball was like in the 90's during the Bulls dynasty. I consider that the golden era of NBA ball. You look at all the teams that Jordan went through to win, how he got beat and beat up by the Celtics and Pistons to achieve his goal. How he took 2 years off during his prime and then returned to lose to the Magic. He was embarrassed by that loss but instead of fleeing somewhere else, he went back to the gym the day after the loss to get to work on the next season.
For those too young, who in this day can do this given the situation? This was done at the age of 35.
The OP asked nicely to debate with a clear head and keep the emotion out of it and here you are in the 2nd sentence saying something absurd that nobody on the planet who knows ANYTHING about basketball would agree with. "Not even close" is what you wrote. To me, that sounds like too much emotion creeping in and not enough clear headed logic, but whatever.
You seem butthurt that he went to "collude" with "buddies" to win, but that has nothing at all to do with his basketball talent.
The players in the NBA are far superior to what Jordan played against from an athletic standpoint. Look at guys like Anthony Davis and Blake Griffin...these are 6 foot 10 POINT GUARDS for the most part. There was nobody in the Jordan era that was that gifted athletically at that size who could ball handle and whatnut, and i'm not even mentioning the point guards of today, who was Jordan playing against back in the day? Talent is no where near as good as it is today.
Lebron is an all time monster, he's a freak, to suggest that he's not "close" to anyone in history is a theory that nobody who knows basketball would ever agree with.
Duncan: 15ppg avg the past 5 seasons. 22ppg avg his first 10 seasons.
He's been skating by for years.
you clearly havent read the link i posted. over the last 17 years, tim duncan has been the most consistent player in NBA HISTORY. the only number drop that needs to be looked at is minutes per game. you see there is a difference between being dominant and putting up numbers. there is a reason kobe puts up big points, he puts up a lot of shots, as a mater of fact, more than any player in history, and missed more than any player in history.
if you balance things and look at per 36 min
duncan 20.4ppg, 11.5rpg, 3.2 apg, 1 steal, 2.3 blocks on 51% shooting
then look at his season by season and those numbers are almost exactly the same every seasons since 1998
kobe 25, 5.2, 4.7, 1.4, .5 on 45%
kobe didnt put up numbers like that until his 4th season and hasnt played 1/2 a season in 2 years.
jordan 28.3, 5.9, 4.9, 2.2, .8 on 50% shooting. jordans numbers would look better if his ego and pride didnt get in the way bringing him back for a couple of worthless seasons at 38-39 yrs old.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
I'm wondering which star players basically won championships all by themselves?
Jordan had Pippen
Magic had Worthy/Kareem
Isiah had Dumars/Laimbeer
KG had Allen/Pierce
Bird had McHale
Lebron had Wade/Bosh
Duncan had Manu/tony
Kobe had Shaq/Pau
Maybe Hakeem when the Rockets won in '94? His best teammate was probably Otis Thorpe or Vernon Maxwell.
in 2003, tim had a one legged robinson, a rookie manu, and a 2nd year tony parker who wasnt in games late because he was to wild and turn-over prone. pop would pull tony and put SPEEDY-Fing-CLAXTON in the game. by 2005, tony and manu were coming around but it was still 10000% time duncan. by 2007, tony was taking over.
in 2003, tim played 43 min, averaged 24.7ppg, 15.4 rpg, 5.3, .3 spg, 3.3 bpg. leading the spurs in every category except steals.
people tend to look at what tony and manu BECAME and not what they were to try to take away from tims legacy. thats not a fair argument.
1984-5: 38-44 (lost 1-3 in playoffs)
1985-6: 30-52 (lost 0-3 in playoffs)
1986-7: 40-42 (lost 0-3 in playoffs)
2000-1: 37-45 (no playoffs)
2001-2: 37-45 (no playoffs)
182-228 (.444)...... 1-9 in playoffs
Not so good without Pippen.
Your argument is poorly thought out.
In '86 and '87 Jordan was 22-23 years old and the Bulls just weren't that good (take a look at the roster). Of course they were swept by the '86 and '87 Boston Celtics...perhaps the best basketball team in NBA history.
Bringing up '01/'02 is so silly that I'm wondering why I even entertain your "argument".
The players in the NBA are far superior to what Jordan played against from an athletic standpoint. Look at guys like Anthony Davis and Blake Griffin...these are 6 foot 10 POINT GUARDS for the most part. There was nobody in the Jordan era that was that gifted athletically at that size who could ball handle and whatnut, and i'm not even mentioning the point guards of today, who was Jordan playing against back in the day? Talent is no where near as good as it is today.
I find it hard to believe that NBA athletes have become far superior to what they were just 17 years ago when Jordan won his last ring. Hell, just 12 years ago Jordan was putting up 20 ppg at 39 yrs old. And lets see...would anyone argue that guys like Shaq, Hakeem, Kemp, Payton, Ewing, Barkley, Drexler, Robinson, Rodman, Dominique, Penny, Malone, etc were somehow far less superior to the players Lebron plays against? Are you insane?
Duncan: 15ppg avg the past 5 seasons. 22ppg avg his first 10 seasons.
He's been skating by for years.
He was on the all-nba team just 2 years ago.
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