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I want to kick this off by being brief, but I hope to drive an intelligent conversation based off more than emotion...
I'm 26 next month; I started watching the NBA during the 98-99 season, when the Spurs won their first. So physically, besides his short stint with the Wizards, I never actually saw Jordan play. I'm definitely of the Lebron era-NBA, but I've also been able to see many other greats in their prime---Iverson, Duncan, Garnett, Shaq, Tony Parker (to me the most underrated playoff performer ever; dude is like Joe Flacco, he's a completely different player in the postseason), Nowitzki, Durant, Paul, Wade, Bosh, Carmelo, and of course----Kobe Bryant...
My main purpose for kicking this off as a sounding board is because having witnessed the careers of both Kobe and Lebron, WITHOUT a predisposed Jordan bias, I may be able to judge the two fairer than some of you older heads. And watching those two, I have no hesitation in calling Lebron better than Kobe. I not a 'huge' gap between the two, but it isn't a hard conclusion for me to reach. As this thread progresses, I'll delve into my reasoning...
Although I never saw Jordan, I've gotten a feel for him through people who did (my dad, my uncles), through YouTube or ESPN docs, and through the many ways there are to research his career and stats. As it pertains to comparison, my point in this thread isn't to anoint either Kobe or Lebron as better than Jordan. I do want to point out, though, that particularly in Lebron's case, the gap is closing, has been for some time, and upon the time he retires, we may very well have a legitimate debate for who was the best baller ever....
Just food for thought in closing: yes, Lebron has played in a much easier Eastern Conference than Jordan did. Yes, Lebron had some huge chokes in the postseason. Yes, his scoring statistics aren't as gaudy as Jordan's. Yes, he's got a losing Finals record. But all of these notes have are insignificant without real analysis. What Lebron has accomplished in the NBA is of such historic proportion that the only careers comparable to his are Jordan, Russell/Wilt, and Magic/Bird. Lebron has been that transcending, that dominant, and that good. I think it is hard for older fans to see the brevity of his greatness right now, and for younger fans (my age) who don't like him, I think they miscalculate how players should fully be judged in greatness....
As promised I'll elaborate on all above statements later. Hopefully there is some strong dialogue and honest summations here. Let the games begin!
I'd say Kobe and Lebron are ranked somewhere close to one another. Lebron is nearing the tail end of his prime but still has a good 2-3 years left (doubt his game will age like Duncan's) to cement a position ahead of Kobe if he performs well (lets say another championship or two). With that said, I wouldn't rank either in the top 5 all time. Both along with Tim Duncan are in the 8-12 spots. Jordan is obviously on basketball's Mt Rushmore. Lebron has a chance to move up, but I think a lot of that will depend on this year's finals. Usually one season doesn't matter that much, but if Lebron falls to 2-4 in the finals he'll have an incredibly glaring fault on his resume. If I'm not mistaken Jordan is 6-0, Kobe 5-2 and Duncan 5-1 (darn Ray Allen).
I do want to point out, though, that particularly in Lebron's case, the gap is closing, has been for some time, and upon the time he retires, we may very well have a legitimate debate for who was the best baller ever....
You just showed your age there...
Of all the current players, I think Kobe is the only one who can be compared to Jordan even remotely.
James? Not even close. The east is weak and has been for many years. Not only has it been weak but the "strong" teams always seemed to suffer injuries which made his path to the finals easier, hence the losing record. He would not have gone to Miami or come back to Cleveland if deals weren't already in place for a built team for him already. Would Kobe or Jordan done that?
If it weren't for a lucky bounce and Ray Allen 3 pointer, James would have 1 championship.
At 30 and having come straight from HS with a lot of long post season runs, I think his better years are behind him. He seems to be more of a physical bully than a skill player and if he had played in the 80's and 90's, he'd been dealt with more appropriately than in the much softer current era.
The difference between him and guys like Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Bird, etc. is that those guys didn't have to jump ship somewhere else and collude with buddies to win. Those guys were leaders.
The issue I have with that is the message it sends to young kids: instead of riding it out and working hard, just go somewhere else where things will be easier for you.
For those under 30, you have no idea what NBA basketball was like in the 90's during the Bulls dynasty. I consider that the golden era of NBA ball. You look at all the teams that Jordan went through to win, how he got beat and beat up by the Celtics and Pistons to achieve his goal. How he took 2 years off during his prime and then returned to lose to the Magic. He was embarrassed by that loss but instead of fleeing somewhere else, he went back to the gym the day after the loss to get to work on the next season.
For those too young, who in this day can do this given the situation? This was done at the age of 35.
Jordan without Pippen (5 seasons) has a sub .400 record, 0 championships, 0 playoff series wins, 0 MVPs, 0 All-NBA Defense and just 1-9 post season record.
Bulls of the 90s were not only the most talented team in the league but there weren't any dominant teams left to challenge them. No more Showtime Lakers, no more Bad Boy Pistons, Larry Bird Celtics. Only Chuck/KJ and Malone/Stockton. Bulls could have easily won 9 rings if not for Jordan retiring twice.
Last time I saw Kobe vs. Jordan, Kobe dropped 55 on him.
Listen, I completely agree that Lebron is past his prime, or near the end of it. It's evident over the entire body of this season. I believe the last we'll see of Lebron at full height was last year's Finals. That said, he is still head and shoulders better than the grouping of the next best players in the game. Although he shot horribly against the Bulls, he still averaged 26.2 points with a .667 win percentage. That's against a very good defensive team. Equate that over a full season, as a scorer first, that's a 54/55 win season, and against weaker defenses his scoring average would be higher. My point here is even though we're beginning to see him slightly regress, the regressed 30-year old Lebron can STILL lead the league in scoring/average 30 ppg, and have an elite team, if he had to be a scorer first the way he had to be against Chicago...
When comparing Finals records, obviously Lebron will always lose because he already has 3 L's, and Jordan and Kobe don't even have that between them. But neither had to work as hard to get there in the first place, especially not Kobe....
The Eastern Conference actually seems to be getting stronger again. But in 06-07, probably at the worst it ever was, he took a team with past their prime role players (Eric Snow, Ilgauskas) and overpaid role players (Larry Hughes) to the Finals. And he carried that squad deep each year; the Cavaliers in his first tenure would have been exactly what they were when he left without him---perennial losers...his first year in Miami, he was afraid and intimidated of the big stage, no excuses there. He had to grow into wanting that. Because he'd been that in Cleveland, and because he has always his whole life been a facilitator first, he didn't have the confidence or want to be that initially. That Finals loss (2011) is squarely on him, I'll concede that. But not his first or last Finals losses--he was outstanding last year, carried the Heat the entire year, and just ran into a buzz saw...
People don't even want to/like paying with Kobe, and he never has had the ability to raise the standard of his teammates to the extent Lebron has. Lebron is much closer to Jordan in this regard. Plus, Kobe was gifted with Phil Jackson as his coach and Shaq at absolute dominance early in his career. When Jordan was blessed with Phil Jackson and Scottie Pippen, he became a much more complete player as well, as a result of playing on a better team with better supporting cast. How is that any different than Lebron hookingbup with Pat Riley and becoming a better player as the results of being on a better team with better surrounding cast? The Cavaliers weren't giving it to him on either front. He wanted to win. You can't turn an average coach into a great one. The greatest players can get a bunch of average players to the Finals, but you can't win without help against competition with better players on THE BIGGEST stage of all. He basically did what Iverson did back in '01 (with the same Eric Snow), but was right in the middle of the Spurs legacy years...
I've been slow to call Jordan overrated, but @mangoarrow made some great points. It is very arguable that Lebron was a better player than Jordan on crap teams; not saying it is so, but it's arguable. Jordan didn't reach the Finals, never even won a playoff series. But he did have much stiffer competition. Plus, the 90s era was when the East began getting weaker. His competition in the 90s was better, but it's not like he didn't play on a literal dream team when other teams in the East (Knicks, Pacers, etc) had superstars but we're far weaker. And miss me with saying Lebron couldn't play in the 80s NBA. I think his game fits right in to that era.
Also, a side note: Dumcan will end up higher on the list of all-time greats than KG because of longevity and the sustainability of his success. But if we consider both at their primes, KG was the better and more dominant player, he just declined sooner. Again, same case of Lebron versus Jordan/Kobe, Duncan has played his entire career in the same system with one of the best coaches ever. True, in his great years he was the best player on that team, and he has the rings. But KG carried a bunch of also-rans year after year after year in Minnesota. Imagine a peak KG with a HOF coach and at least one, maybe two HOF players....scary...
Kobe doesn't enough credit for succeeding in the hotly competitive Western conference, and Lebron isn't necessarily scrutinized for succeeding in the Eastern conference. I ran across this, a record of 50+ win teams that Kobe and Lebron's teams have beaten in a playoff series http://i.imgur.com/MZSzhDf.png
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