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Bad troll job. There's nothing you can say to diminish that LeBron is on the short list of greatest postseason players ever, which is why he has an argument as GOAT #1. It's always up for debate, but LeBron certainly has an argument...
Bad troll job. There's nothing you can say to diminish that LeBron is on the short list of greatest postseason players ever, which is why he has an argument as GOAT #1. It's always up for debate, but LeBron certainly has an argument...
Bad troll job. There's nothing you can say to diminish that LeBron is on the short list of greatest postseason players ever, which is why he has an argument as GOAT #1. It's always up for debate, but LeBron certainly has an argument...
He's certainly up there, but seriously, joining a superteam including a Scoring Champ MVP Finals Franchise player?
He's an odd character in that
-Pretty much deep into the playoffs for pretty much a decade that very few players have led
-But because of that, he's got really bad performances mixed in there. As in really really, mentally blocked on another planet type performance.
For many, it's the eye-test. During those bad games, he literally looked lost, scared, timid, other players having to be aggressive to bail him out. The main counter regarding MJ was no matter how bad his own team was, and how brutalizing the Bad Boy Pistons were, MJ was like a programmed robot that kept just running into that wall, where LeBron comparatively could look like a pre-schooler in those type of situations.
On the otherhand, he has had unbelievable games where a lot of shots were 'holy moly' daggers that Kobe used to in the regular season (Kobe was not nearly effective in the Post-Season in that aspect).
All in all, you definitely have to put him up there for his longevity and accomplishments throughout his post-season career (despite the whole jumping onto big brother Wade's Heat team), and for his role against beating that 73 win Warriors team. And unlike many, I do give him credit for getting to the Finals all those times with Cleveland despite beating the DeRozan Raps teams along the way.
For many, it's the eye-test. During those bad games, he literally looked lost, scared, timid, other players having to be aggressive to bail him out. The main counter regarding MJ was no matter how bad his own team was, and how brutalizing the Bad Boy Pistons were, MJ was like a programmed robot that kept just running into that wall, where LeBron comparatively could look like a pre-schooler in those type of situations.
At age 22, Jordan was swept out of the Playoffs by the eventual champion Boston Celtics. He averaged 43.7 ppg and 5.7 assists on 50.5% shooting.
At age 22, Lebron was swept in the Finals by the eventual champion San Antonio Spurs. He averaged 22 ppg and 6.8 assists on 35.6% shooting.
At age 26, Jordan lost to the eventual champion Detroit Pistons in the Eastern Conference Finals. He averaged 32.1 ppg and 6.3 assists on 46.7% shooting.
At age 26, Lebron lost to the eventual champion Dallas Mavericks in the Finals. He averaged 17.8 ppg and 6.8 assists on 47.8% shooting.
I know a popular argument is that Lebron should not be penalized for getting his team to the Finals while Jordan gets his "6 for 6 in the Finals" free pass without acknowledgment of his failure to reach the Finals 7 times in Chicago. But it's also important to consider how these guys lose. 2011 was obviously an abysmal performance by Lebron on a super team that he handpicked. But even the 2007 Finals, which he generally gets a pass for, was a pretty atrocious performance for him. All of those games were decided by single digits, the last two by a total of 4 points, and it's hard to argue that SLIGHTLY better performances from Lebron would not have made it a more competitive series.
He's certainly up there, but seriously, joining a superteam including a Scoring Champ MVP Finals Franchise player?
He's an odd character in that
-Pretty much deep into the playoffs for pretty much a decade that very few players have led
-But because of that, he's got really bad performances mixed in there. As in really really, mentally blocked on another planet type performance.
For many, it's the eye-test. During those bad games, he literally looked lost, scared, timid, other players having to be aggressive to bail him out. The main counter regarding MJ was no matter how bad his own team was, and how brutalizing the Bad Boy Pistons were, MJ was like a programmed robot that kept just running into that wall, where LeBron comparatively could look like a pre-schooler in those type of situations.
On the otherhand, he has had unbelievable games where a lot of shots were 'holy moly' daggers that Kobe used to in the regular season (Kobe was not nearly effective in the Post-Season in that aspect).
All in all, you definitely have to put him up there for his longevity and accomplishments throughout his post-season career (despite the whole jumping onto big brother Wade's Heat team), and for his role against beating that 73 win Warriors team. And unlike many, I do give him credit for getting to the Finals all those times with Cleveland despite beating the DeRozan Raps teams along the way.
This. It says more about Jordan than it does about LeBron though, IMO.
For me it was the year he joined the Heat in 2012...
His best peak season on record.
But In 09 he was supposed to meet Kobe in the finals but he failed miserably by letting the Dwight Howard - Orlando Magic beat his Cavs in the ECF despite having homecourt advantage.He put up great numbers but that Jordan like Mentality to will his team to victory never blossomed in his game.
So from 2012 - 15 he was clearly the best.
2016 - 18,I'd give those years to Curry / Westbrook due to his crazy triple doubles for consecutive seasons.
KOBE career was kinda tricky because he played with some of the greatest big men ever in their prime.
SHAQ & TD ✓
Realistically you can argue Kobe as a top 3 player from 00 - 05 ...Shaq,Duncan,Kobe and outside of those 3 ,we could argue Iverson, Garnett & Mcgrady. But it was Kobe defense & offense that made him better than the next 3 in my opinion.
And the Duncan vs Kobe debate is apples to oranges in my opinion.If Duncan was better on defense than it wasn't by a large margin but on offense Kobe was way better than Duncan so that's how I always ranked Kobe over TD plus he beat Duncan teams more in the playoffs.
But the year where he was really seen as the best was in the 2006 season,where he put up Wilt like numbers.
06 - 10 was the prime Kobe era where he led team USA in 08 and won back to back titles without Shaq.
The only robbery in Kobe career was from 05 - 07,where the league let him play with D league talent for 3 years of his prime.
So yeah Kobe ruled the 2000's & Lebron had the 2010's,
Both of the greatest players ever since Michael Jordan.
-But because of that, he's got really bad performances mixed in there. As in really really, mentally blocked on another planet type performance.
For many, it's the eye-test. During those bad games, he literally looked lost, scared, timid, other players having to be aggressive to bail him out. The main counter regarding MJ was no matter how bad his own team was, and how brutalizing the Bad Boy Pistons were, MJ was like a programmed robot that kept just running into that wall, where LeBron comparatively could look like a pre-schooler in those type of situations.
All in all, you definitely have to put him up there for his longevity and accomplishments throughout his post-season career (despite the whole jumping onto big brother Wade's Heat team), and for his role against beating that 73 win Warriors team. And unlike many, I do give him credit for getting to the Finals all those times with Cleveland despite beating the DeRozan Raps teams along the way.
Couple things here:
•LeBron's got really two bad playoff moments: the entire 2011 Finals vs Dallas, and 2010 Semis vs Boston. It's fine if you want to say Jordan never had moments that bad, that's fair. But don't insinuate that LeBron just has poor playoff performances all over his career...
Since losing to Boston in '10, Bron has only lost in The Finals, and since losing to Dallas in '11, he doesn't have another embarrassing playoff face plant on his resume. '11 was nearly a decade ago. I think LeBron deserves some credit for maturing from those early playoff woes, that takes some real mental fortitude...
•MJ was a robot in those early losses, a complete chucker. You can romanticize his fight, but at least be objective. Those Bulls teams couldn't win because he wasn't a complete player, just like LeBron at his early L's. The Jordan revisionist stuff is alive and well, I see...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboy310
For me it was the year he joined the Heat in 2012...
His best peak season on record.
But In 09 he was supposed to meet Kobe in the finals but he failed miserably by letting the Dwight Howard - Orlando Magic beat his Cavs in the ECF despite having homecourt advantage.He put up great numbers but that Jordan like Mentality to will his team to victory never blossomed in his game.
So from 2012 - 15 he was clearly the best.
2016 - 18,I'd give those years to Curry / Westbrook due to his crazy triple doubles for consecutive seasons.
Stop it hahahahaha...
There's not a single year Westbrook has an argument as best player, and Curry literally has just one season to make an argument...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboy310
KOBE career was kinda tricky because he played with some of the greatest big men ever in their prime.
SHAQ & TD ✓
Realistically you can argue Kobe as a top 3 player from 00 - 05 ...Shaq,Duncan,Kobe and outside of those 3 ,we could argue Iverson, Garnett & Mcgrady. But it was Kobe defense & offense that made him better than the next 3 in my opinion.
And the Duncan vs Kobe debate is apples to oranges in my opinion.If Duncan was better on defense than it wasn't by a large margin but on offense Kobe was way better than Duncan so that's how I always ranked Kobe over TD plus he beat Duncan teams more in the playoffs.
But the year where he was really seen as the best was in the 2006 season,where he put up Wilt like numbers.
06 - 10 was the prime Kobe era where he led team USA in 08 and won back to back titles without Shaq.
The only robbery in Kobe career was from 05 - 07,where the league let him play with D league talent for 3 years of his prime.
So yeah Kobe ruled the 2000's & Lebron had the 2010's,
Both of the greatest players ever since Michael Jordan.
Kobe was never the face of the NBA for as anywhere near as long as LeBron. He was always in the Top 3-5 for a long time, I give you that, but Kobe never had a sustained dominance that undisputedly put him above Duncan, Shaq, LeBron, Dirk, Garnett. Those are five guys whose primes also paralleled Kobe's prime---->again, Kobe had an argument and was in the conversation without a doubt. But he was no consensus choice, and you know that if you were watching ball in the 2000s...
•LeBron's got really two bad playoff moments: the entire 2011 Finals vs Dallas, and 2010 Semis vs Boston. It's fine if you want to say Jordan never had moments that bad, that's fair. But don't insinuate that LeBron just has poor playoff performances all over his career...
We should also include the 2007 Finals. Not sure why he gets a pass for that. He shot 35% from the field, 20% from 3, and 69% from the charity stripe. He averaged 5 fewer points than he did during the regular season and his FG% dropped from 47.6% to 35.6%. That might be the biggest statistical collapse from a superstar player in recent history.
The counterargument here is "Lebron was young, there's nothing he could have done against that Spurs team." Yeah, the Cavs were outmatched, but that was no reason for his production to undergo that severe of a dropoff. Jordan was also young when he got swept out of the playoffs by a legendary Celtics team, yet he managed to put up 43.7 PPG on 50.5% shooting. And he was the same age (22) Lebron was during the 2007 Finals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock
•MJ was a robot in those early losses, a complete chucker. You can romanticize his fight, but at least be objective. Those Bulls teams couldn't win because he wasn't a complete player, just like LeBron at his early L's. The Jordan revisionist stuff is alive and well, I see...
Those early teams couldn't win because his best teammates were Orlando Woolridge and Dave Corzine. He was also losing to teams that had multiple HOFers. Even then, he never played as poorly as Lebron did in 2007.
BTW, you're not really chucking if the majority of your shots are going in. In the game of basketball, a player is generally considered to be efficient if he makes more shots than he misses.
Didn't you say you are about to turn 29? That means you're barely even old enough to remember him playing during his washed up Wizards years. How can you compare the two if you never even saw Jordan play?
If we're going by advanced stats, which younger fans seem to hang their hat on, Michael Jordan has the highest W/S per 48 in both the regular season and playoffs. He also has the highest career scoring average for both the regular season and the playoffs. Case closed. There is no argument for Lebron being a better post-season performer AT ALL.
And I didn't even mention 6 rings to 3....
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