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You assume too much and you project.
I'm not a Buddhist (not a card carrying one anyway).
I can't claim to be a pacifist because i have not been presented with war or with violence in the way that say, the civil rights marchers were in the 50's and 60's ... or as the American Indians were or the Tibetans were and are, and on and on and on and on and on and on.
I have not been involved in war.
Stating that someones words are ignorant is just stating that someones words are ignorant.
Ignorant = lacking in knowledge.
Your statement about me as one "who will not stand up for anything, yet will attack as soon as they think that have some advantage" and referring to me as a "coward" is ... ummmmm .... how shall i say .... ummmm .... lacking in knowledge.
And your notion of a "truly spiritual person" is limited.
And what sort of people are you involved with that would "whip my ass" for saying to someone that their words are ignorant?
yoiks!
just to demonstrate what those three words are saying and may possibly mean.
not enough to make an accusation (direct or indirect). but more than enough to keep me in uncomfortable doubt. my fault, of course.
Okay, I'll try to explain in more detail. The civil rights movement accomplished its goals through lawsuits (such as, for example, to end school segregation) and legislation (such as the Civil Rights Act of 1964). These accomplishments would mean nothing if these legal advancements were not enforceable. What does the word "enforceable" mean? It means that if someone refuses to comply with the law, the government will force that person or organization to comply -- through violent means. It is, in fact, exactly what happened with school desegregation. My point is that the civil rights movement accomplished its goals by relying on violence or threat of violence at least in part -- not chaotic, disorganized, uncontrolled, or illegal vigilante violence, but violence nevertheless. And thus, it is not an example of a triumph of civil disobedience. This is not a judgment or condemnation of the civil rights movement -- I am merely pointing out that wasn't a pacifistic one.
Trying to influence the political process through legitimate means and to improve the state of the law is often cited as an example of "peaceful" change. But it is peaceful only in the relative sense -- not in the absolute sense. Because behind any law that's going to be obeyed is the threat of violence by the State against anyone who dares defy it. That's what "enforceability" and "enforcement" mean. Unfortunately, many people who claim to be pacifists do not realize to what great extent they avail themselves of violence by others.
Oh, i see ... very well explained.
It still does not however, despite the workings of the civil rights movement for example, negate or mitigate the essential truth of those words of Martin Luther King, Jr. that i quoted.
But i understand what you have presented and i appreciate it.
just to demonstrate what those three words are saying and may possibly mean.
not enough to make an accusation (direct or indirect). but more than enough to keep me in uncomfortable doubt. my fault, of course.
effie g-tad you are a riddle or at least your expressions are (to me anyway)
i try though.
ummmm, say what now?
i'll just say that, regardless of whether or not i'm understanding your post, i was not calling Antlered Chamataka ignorant.
If i make a false statement (and with certitude) about something that he has knowledge of (whereas i don't) and he calls my words "truly ignorant", i'll take the slap.
If someone is working out something and exploring and trying to understand and says something that is inaccurate because they are misinformed, that's one thing.
But there is so much arrogant expression on this forum that is so full of certitude and much of it is rife with misunderstanding.
So i'll call someone on it at times.
Especially since, though i'm not a card-carrying Buddhist, i'm rather protective of it when i see that someone has some very wrong and/or limited awareness of what Buddhism is particularly since this is the internet and information and misinformation spreads like wildfire!
Last edited by coyoteskye; 08-14-2009 at 01:54 PM..
but then i saw that you highlighted your - is - limited so i have no idea what you are saying and my reply was probably not a direct response to what you said 'cause i don't know what you said.
Redisca, I do understand your points but I don't think they're meant to be taken to such extremes.
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1. Do not be idolatrous about or bound to any doctrine, theory, or ideology, even Buddhist ones. Buddhist systems of thought are guiding means; they are not absolute truth.
I think this applies to religion; blind faith.
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2. Do not think the knowledge you presently possess is changeless, absolute truth. Avoid being narrow minded and bound to present views. Learn and practice nonattachment from views in order to be open to receive others' viewpoints. Truth is found in life and not merely in conceptual knowledge. Be ready to learn throughout your entire life and to observe reality in yourself and in the world at all times. (How much of this do we see here on CD?)
I think this applies to judgment, actually being narrow minded, bound to your perception alone. It's not necessarily about being open to all views but not dismissing or closing your mind to others because it is not in line with your thinking or what you have experienced.
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3. Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education. However, through compassionate dialogue, help others renounce fanaticism and narrow-mindedness.
I think this refers to extreme thinking, brainwashing, any form of "education" that breeds harm or negativity.
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4. Do not avoid suffering or close your eyes before suffering. Do not lose awareness of the existence of suffering in the life of the world. Find ways to be with those who are suffering, including personal contact, visits, images and sounds. By such means, awaken yourself and others to the reality of suffering in the world.
I don't interpret this to mean that suffering is necessary. I see it as not avoiding the reality that it exists (perhaps because it makes us uncomfortable?). It suggests that we do what we can to help others who are suffering and we can't do this if we are in denial or avoiding it.
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5. Do not accumulate wealth while millions are hungry. Do not take as the aim of your life fame, profit, wealth, or sensual pleasure. Live simply and share time, energy, and material resources with those who are in need.
I don't agree with this if it means that I should remain poor. I do see that you shouldn't accumulate wealth selfishly, to impress or one up. I think Brangelina. I also want wealth, not for the bling or bragging rights, but because it will enable me to really make a difference in the lives of those less forunate. I plan to use my "resources" to help abuse victims on a grander scale than I am now.
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6. Do not maintain anger or hatred (we see this here in all the debasing generalizations about men/women, republicans/democrats, etc.). Learn to penetrate and transform them when they are still seeds in your consciousness. As soon as they arise, turn your attention to your breath in order to see and understand the nature of your hatred.
I agree some people/groups/actions warrant hatred. Your anger with the Nazis is justified. I don't think you carry it with you everywhere and in everything you do. I think that is what this is about, not letting it consume you.
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8. Do not utter words that can create discord and cause the community to break. Make every effort to reconcile and resolve all conflicts, however small.
Clearly, if your community has a long standing practice of injustice, you should speak out against it, as suggested in number 9 below. This suggests that you should not create these injustices and do what you can to maintain harmony in your community. This would apply to those people you are referring to.
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9. Do not say untruthful things for the sake of personal interest or to impress people. Do not utter words that cause division and hatred. Do not spread news that you do not know to be certain. Do not criticize or condemn things of which you are not sure. Always speak truthfully and constructively (LOL....sound familiar?) Have the courage to speak out about situations of injustice, even when doing so may threaten your own safety (actual injustices, not perceived slights due to closed-mindedness).
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10. Do not use the Buddhist community for personal gain or profit, or transform your community into a political party. A religious community, however, should take a clear stand against oppression and injustice and should strive to change the situation without engaging in partisan conflicts.
I think this highlights the separation of church and state, that oppression and injustice, in and of themselves, are not political issues and can be addressed/remedied without political involvement or agenda.
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11. Do not live with a vocation that is harmful to humans and nature. Do not invest in companies that deprive others of their chance to live. Select a vocation that helps realise your ideal of compassion.
I'm in agreement on the farming thing, though I doubt they expect us to not eat. I believe vegetarianism is encouraged. In daily life, outside of religion, I interpret this to refer to animal testing, particpating in or supporting companies that knowingly produce products harmful to humans, animals and the environment.
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12. Do not kill. Do not let others kill. Find whatever means possible to protect life and prevent war.
Do they find it wrong to kill in self-defense? I don't know. But we know we shouldn't kill and should do everything we can to avoid it, even in situations like self-defense.
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13. Possess nothing that should belong to others. Respect the property of others, but prevent others from profiting from human suffering or the suffering of other species on Earth.
I don't know that they are referring to what we need to survive, are they against medical care? Again, outside of religion, animal testing and human trafficking come to mind. On the possession, I'm kind of fuzzy on that myself, though I'm inclined to think it has something to do with greed or excess.
My only concern is the pacifism. a man must be ready to stand against those that would take the peace away or enslave the peaceful. Try peace can only be sustained by a warriors creed.........and those willing to both die and kill to protect those unable to protect themselves.
But that's why monks developed martial arts, to defend themselves when necessary. They have created the ability to kill in many ways as needed, but the idea is to avoid such instances. The whole concept is to not be rigidly attached to any particular ideas. The ones presented are for each person to follow as they wish, with the understanding that large deviations from these ideas may result in not achieving enlightenment (e.g. returning to heaven, etc...).
I'm in agreement on the farming thing, though I doubt they expect us to not eat. I believe vegetarianism is encouraged. In daily life, outside of religion, I interpret this to refer to animal testing, particpating in or supporting companies that knowingly produce products harmful to humans, animals and the environment.
How it's interpreted depends on the culture. For example, in Thailand, which is predominately a Buddhist nation, there are vegetarians. But there are also people (including monks) who eat meat. Meat eaters may feel it's a "sin" to kill an animal (pigs, chickens, etc.), but if the animal is already dead because someone else killed it, then there's no point letting it go to waste. At the same time, most feel it's okay if you kill fish and other aquatic creatures, frogs or insects. The point is that the interpretation varies depending on the culture a person is raised in.
How it's interpreted depends on the culture. For example, in Thailand, which is predominately a Buddhist nation, there are vegetarians. But there are also people (including monks) who eat meat. Meat eaters may feel it's a "sin" to kill an animal (pigs, chickens, etc.), but if the animal is already dead because someone else killed it, then there's no point letting it go to waste. At the same time, most feel it's okay if you kill fish and other aquatic creatures, frogs or insects. The point is that the interpretation varies depending on the culture a person is raised in.
each religion with a few noted exceptions include many of these principles in their doctrine, i wont single out budda, but i know a lot of people that preach and dont practice much of it. . WWII history is full of such examples.
Those are some truly ignorant words.
And humans, unlike other creatures, do have the capacity to choose non-violence.
Your joke about Buddhists isn't funny because it's so untrue.
Humor always has an element of truth in it.
Buddhists, speaking generally and certainly regarding those that have taken vows, are probably the most rigorous spiritual practitioners on the planet.
They are not "bliss-ninnies" and in principal and practice tend to be more here than most while at the same time working diligently toward liberation "for the sake of all sentient beings".
You can accuse me of ignorance all you want, but I'll tell you what is really true.
1. The grand old man supposed to be the Pope of Buddhism, inciting violence in Tibet. I can understand the urge to throw the Chinese out, but it's not what Popes are supposed to do. But we all know of the Urbans, the Julii or the Pornocrats, which proves the adage that Buddhism is the same piece of organized crap the anti-Christers are so bummed about. Now, there's one most rigourous and spiritual practitioner of the practice. No, the Chinese are not even close to lying. We actually have a hand in stoking up this insurgency, but it's an unwritten law. Technically speaking, per Indo-Chinese accord, we need to kick his bum out of the country. Now we'll be very interested in knowing which country in the world is man enough at irritating big China.
2. The systematic destruction of Tibetan culture and Buddhism as a religion is a long, soft process which will definitely be complete by the turn of the century, and there's no stopping the world's next almost sole superpower, unless someone pulls a world-class taliban-like gimmick. And what exactly must prevent that is bloody insurgency which has been neutered off Buddhist soil by centuries of Wussification presented by the ideals of not wanting to hurt a dead ant.
Besides, the joke was for real. When you guys buy something like Buddhism, it's actually laughable that noone is interested in history and you guys just sound off on rhetoric, based on cherry pickings from what has been sold from the buggers who wash ashore to this side of the world.
And I'm still not buying the fact that Buddhism is a religion of its own, it's an insult to Hinduism.
Drugs were an inherent part of all that meditation/enlightenment fracas/brouhaha. I asked the elders of my country as to why they banned it, when the very religion supports it in the Vedas.
Simple answer: It stunts productivity.
Result: Pacifists, loonies and sadhus. The men who actually let Islamic invaders, Brits, French, Portuguese and the like run amok and loot money and resources.
You guys can actually smoke some weed and attain instant enlightenment. Save yourself all this Buddhist talk.
Spare me and the million cheeky boys who joke about Buddhism and weed.
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