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One interesting thing I've noticed about Buffalo and Rochester is that more homes tend to have concrete driveways in the suburbs which is very common in the midwest, PA, and other parts of the country but quite rare downstate, in Syracuse and New England. I've always wondered why this wasn't more prevalent in the central and eastern part of upstate New York.
I disagree. Several communities on Long Island, Queens and Staten Island also have large numbers of concrete driveways. It has to do more with when those housing developments were launched than with a regional bias. In the 1940s and 50s concrete strips with a grass median was more popular in newly suburban neighborhoods in Nassau and Suffolk counties. Over the years more communities have given way to pavement/asphalt as its cheaper.
Also wanted to bring into question how a large Italian-American presence versus German-American presence is the marker of a 'Northeast' city.. I think Buffalo's large Italian community would take offense at being so marginalized, and New York's historic German community forgotten. In the mid 1800s New York was the third largest German-speaking city after Berlin and Vienna. Bigger than Munich. Frankfurt. Hamburg. Read up a little on Kleindeutschland and Yorkville on Manhattan's East Side, and Williamsburg in Brooklyn. Many of NYC's buildings and names from the mid 19th and early 20th century have a strong German influence, but like everywhere else the community assimilated, especially after a tragic fire in the community killed about 1 000 people aboard the General Slocum. Interesting history most of the Italian-German arguments are ignoring. Philly has always had a large German influence - southeast Pennsylvania had long been the center of German culture in America - is Philly a midwestern city by these standards??
Also wanted to bring into question how a large Italian-American presence versus German-American presence is the marker of a 'Northeast' city.. I think Buffalo's large Italian community would take offense at being so marginalized, and New York's historic German community forgotten. In the mid 1800s New York was the third largest German-speaking city after Berlin and Vienna. Bigger than Munich. Frankfurt. Hamburg. Read up a little on Kleindeutschland and Yorkville on Manhattan's East Side, and Williamsburg in Brooklyn. Many of NYC's buildings and names from the mid 19th and early 20th century have a strong German influence, but like everywhere else the community assimilated, especially after a tragic fire in the community killed about 1 000 people aboard the General Slocum. Interesting history most of the Italian-German arguments are ignoring. Philly has always had a large German influence - southeast Pennsylvania had long been the center of German culture in America - is Philly a midwestern city by these standards??
Ethnicity is a poor way to judge a city in todays world. Centuries of intermarrying and migration have dissolved much of the classic italian-american or german-american cultures which once dominated certian pockets of cities. For example, there are much fewer itlaian americans who can trace their origins to the "old country" through their parents or grandparents, usually its a great-great-great-grandfather or some other tenious relationship. Most people now cant tell you which family member was the one which moved from sicily to ellis island, its simply too far removed. Not to mention must people who say they are german or italian are really only a percentage (which we can debate the relevance of in another thread) and are far from the 100% germans or italians which flooded ny in the 18/1900's.
Honestly, as much as I hate to admit it....Pop/soda is probaly the most accurate map depicting culture in the U.S.
People will still be removed from the original person from the "old country" but traditions still remain. My family that is actually from Italy is almost all dead, but the traditions still remain. The food still remains. Even lots of slang still remains. That plays much more of a role on culture than other things I've seen.
The pop/soda thing is not accurate at all as "pop" is term that spreads from the northeast to the northwest. A person in Rochester doesn't have much in common with a person in Akron which doesn't have much in common with a person in the northwest.
People will still be removed from the original person from the "old country" but traditions still remain. My family that is actually from Italy is almost all dead, but the traditions still remain. The food still remains. Even lots of slang still remains. That plays much more of a role on culture than other things I've seen.
The pop/soda thing is not accurate at all as "pop" is term that spreads from the northeast to the northwest. A person in Rochester doesn't have much in common with a person in Akron which doesn't have much in common with a person in the northwest.
I think its great that your family still holds onto those traditions, but fewer and fewer families do. And a lot fewer than did during the early 20th century. For me, it is just not a viable way to make a determinaiton on the culture or vibe of a city.
As for the map, your definately right, pop/soda is weak. I meant that, as a classificatio map, it is better than most others I have seen. What I was trying to convney, but after rereading my post did a poor job of, was that cultures are fluid and there is no way way you can quantitatively say that an area is "this" or "that." If anything, this country is a lot more homogenized culturally then people want to admit.
Also wanted to bring into question how a large Italian-American presence versus German-American presence is the marker of a 'Northeast' city.. I think Buffalo's large Italian community would take offense at being so marginalized, and New York's historic German community forgotten. In the mid 1800s New York was the third largest German-speaking city after Berlin and Vienna. Bigger than Munich. Frankfurt. Hamburg. Read up a little on Kleindeutschland and Yorkville on Manhattan's East Side, and Williamsburg in Brooklyn. Many of NYC's buildings and names from the mid 19th and early 20th century have a strong German influence, but like everywhere else the community assimilated, especially after a tragic fire in the community killed about 1 000 people aboard the General Slocum. Interesting history most of the Italian-German arguments are ignoring. Philly has always had a large German influence - southeast Pennsylvania had long been the center of German culture in America - is Philly a midwestern city by these standards??
Philly is definitely Northeastern, but the nearby PA Dutch Country sure has a Midwestern-like feel culturally; though the architecture and layout of towns is not Midwestern. One of my favorite parts of the country by the way
. In the mid 1800s New York was the third largest German-speaking city after Berlin and Vienna. Bigger than Munich. Frankfurt. Hamburg. Read up a little on Kleindeutschland and Yorkville on Manhattan's East Side, and Williamsburg in Brooklyn. Many of NYC's buildings and names from the mid 19th and early 20th century have a strong German influence, but like everywhere else the community assimilated, especially after a tragic fire in the community killed about 1 000 people aboard the General Slocum.
Still some Germans and German restaurants/stores left in the Ridgewood/Glendale area of Queens even today.
I think its great that your family still holds onto those traditions, but fewer and fewer families do. And a lot fewer than did during the early 20th century. For me, it is just not a viable way to make a determinaiton on the culture or vibe of a city.
As for the map, your definately right, pop/soda is weak. I meant that, as a classificatio map, it is better than most others I have seen. What I was trying to convney, but after rereading my post did a poor job of, was that cultures are fluid and there is no way way you can quantitatively say that an area is "this" or "that." If anything, this country is a lot more homogenized culturally then people want to admit.
I agree that more of the country is becoming homogenized which stinks. I've found with the Italian population, around here at least, the traditions are more held on to. A large amount of my Italian friends still do Sunday sauce, fish with christmas, Italian-American slang, etc.
Philly is definitely Northeastern, but the nearby PA Dutch Country sure has a Midwestern-like feel culturally; though the architecture and layout of towns is not Midwestern. One of my favorite parts of the country by the way
Get a little away from the Lancaster Dutch Country & the rest of the state (other than Pittsburgh & its immediate suburbs) has very little Midwestern to it ...... every bit as Appalachian as Western Maryland, Western Virginia, West Virginia & Eastern Kentucky. Pennsyltucky is a very fitting name for the area between Philly & Pittsburgh.
I agree. My job takes me up to Buffalo and Western NY frequently. I live in NE Ohio as well, near Ashtabula, and these trips to Western NY are always day trips. DOwntown Buffalo is only 140 miles from Ashtabula. Bearing in mind that Buffalo is 150 miles from Syracuse, 300 from Albany and over 400 from NYC, it makes total sense that this great lakes city feels more like Cleveland than like NYC. Cleveland is in the same part of the country!!!
This whole thing about whether Buffalo is Midwest or NOrtheast reminds me of the same issue with regards to Pittsburgh. Buffalo is around 190 miles from Cleveland, but over 400 from Boston or NYC. Pittsburgh is about 140 miles from Cleveland, but 300 from Philly. Why is it such a novelty to folks that Pitt and Buff feel more like Cleveland than like the East Coast when they are so much closer to Cleveland?? State lines are arbitrary boundaries, not cultural Berlin Walls with henchmen at the gates, LOL!!!! Thus, places that are close together have more in common with each other than places far apart. The State Line is just a political line. Folks in Buffalo may receive their car titles from Albany, but still live a lot closer to Youngstown and Ashtabula than to Albany. Political features of NY state aside, life in Buffalo has more in common with life in Cleveland by virtue of its' being in the same part of the country. Similar climate, most of all, but also a similar history and similar way of life. Anyone who thinks that folks in Ripley, NY, live a daily life more similar to NYC than to folks 50 miles away in Conneaut, OH, needs to spend more time in some tri-state areas, and they will find out that a state line is nothing more than a political formality.
My husband has 3 4th cousins w3ho live in Conneaut on one side and a bunch in Cuhouga county ( sp? ). All came from Buffalo or Cattaraugus Co. Very similar people
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