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on't detract from the point of the post by bringing another issue (rich people and the dumb consumers who make them rich).
I didn't, you did.
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I think if you stop helping people who could help themselves, that society would be better. Further, you aren't really helping them all that much. You're helping the rich if you understand an ounce of how the mechanics of this whole process works. I don't expect most people to look beyond what some idiot politician tells them. However, when presented with some insight, I don't expect it to be ignored.
You picked exactly what you wanted out of there didn't you? What about those I mentioned who are low income due to things out of their control? You never addressed that.
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If you understand anything about me from my posts on this forum, I come from a poor household that has NEVER been on weflare/rent subsidies. Surprise, I made something of myself. Mainly do to good parenting and the instilling of values from an old school grandma. I ate PB&J sandwiches for dinner. My whole family lived in a room at my grandma's house when times were tough. As a human being w/ free will. I am in control of my destiny. As a human being, I can adapt. A catastrophe hits and you adapt. Don't come pulling some small percentage case to try to substantiate a large scale spending program. $$$ doesn't teach you how to act with class, morals, dignity, honor, and respect. $$$ didn't teach me any of those things when I was young. With those things, you learn how to value an education and hard work and you learn how to apply yourself and your skills to making your own success. You learn how to value what's important when you don't have $$$... Food/water/shelter. I lived in CA for 2 years w/o buying a bed.... Because I couldn't substantiate the costs... You save. You buy later. Hard times and struggle teach you something very important... if you are willing to listen... If I was some spoon fed fool who was wet behind the ears, yeah, maybe I would feel guilty .. But I'm sorry, I lived the poor life and am a better person having pulled out of it due to adapting to conditions and sucking it up.
Cool story bro, great for a best selling book. Still doesn't address my above point but I guess I have to accept the fact that you won't.
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If you want to have this debate. We can have it. To give you an example. CA's taxations are unfair for me. So, there are numerous deferred tax shelters I put my income in. If they were fair like they were in other states I lived in, I wouldn't. There is a point of fair taxation and there is a point of unfair taxation. You can try to close all the loopholes you want. If its unfair, people will use that energy to make it fair.. Either by creating new ways to plunder money from the idiots in society or by outright legal tax evasion loopholes. So, there is no 'going after the wealthy'.. There is establishing a fair and simple taxation for all and reminding the idiots in America that, through their mindless consumption habits, they make the rich richer.... if they don't like the rich being rich, the #1 way to change that is to change themselves. So stop like babies to the govt. and take a look in the mirror. Be the change you want to see in the world and grow up
You sound like a poorly trained motivational speaker. So the problem really isn't the poor, it's the way we are taxed in this state? That I think we can agree on.
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When the last time a group of poor people gave billions
Are you serious? What kind of a question is that? Dude THEY'RE POOR! Did you give billions when you only had 10 dollars to your name? unbelievable!
You picked exactly what you wanted out of there didn't you? What about those I mentioned who are low income due to things out of their control? You never addressed that.
Cool story bro, great for a best selling book. Still doesn't address my above point but I guess I have to accept the fact that you won't.
You address the point. No one stops you from giving to charity. I do .... Taxation was never intended to be meant for charity. There's an obvious problem w/ it. Let me think of some things... Does this person have family or any other options besides depending on the government? My uncle has a disabled child, he cares for him. His insurance covers the medical costs... He doesn't kick him out in the street and ask someone else (govt.) to take care of him. The elderly ... My parents will live w/ me, their son, if they can't afford retirement.. I'm not going to expect some govt. agency (some other tax payer to do it) .. So, you are making yourself quite clear.. When sH*t happens, its someone else's problem even though that method doesn't scale and there are a slew of people you conveniently don't mention who fit all the criteria but there isn't enough money to go around for.... When you create a solution. Create a real one that scales... I can always point out a corner case in something/exception. That doesn't give you justification to go on a billion dollar taxation rampage so you can feel mushy at night. I can always find a worse case : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxT7qxkzjRs. In people's pursuit to feel good about themselves at night, they often pursue stupid/wasteful policy decisions that don't scale and don't address the true problem. They want to toss money out of helicopters and feel like they are making a difference. Sorry you're not and your plan of doing so sucks.
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Originally Posted by Gentoo
You sound like a poorly trained motivational speaker.
I sound like the harsh reality that (from what I can assess) your average Californian likes to forget about by giving more tax dollars and thinking it will go away. Sorry, it's not working....
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Originally Posted by Gentoo
So the problem really isn't the poor, it's the way we are taxed in this state?
So, taxation isn't the solution to the poor's problems. People thousands of miles away live far more enriching lives with less. Only clowns in America think a prosperous life is indicative of being on par w/ a lifestyle you didn't work for. The ghettos are ghettos because the people's mindset makes them ghettos. This is the bigger issue. People's kids are dumb because they go to school w/ a lack of purpose and goof off an opportunity other people in the world would die for ... This is the bigger issue. And no, my tax dollars don't change the bigger problem. They fix a corner case or two and I am not satisfied with that. I'd be more satisfied w/ keeping my money and giving it to someone i truly identify is in need who wants to better themselves. This is the method that works best.. Each individual making their own choice..
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Originally Posted by Gentoo
Are you serious? What kind of a question is that? Dude THEY'RE POOR! Did you give billions when you only had 10 dollars to your name? unbelievable!
It's a question that i thought would inspire you to think beyond the surface. When I had $10 I couldn't give. Now that I have a crap ton more. I can and that is completely up to me whether I do (which I do in fact do). I choose to give to people who want to be better in life that need help doing so. I am best at determining that in my everyday life.. Not some corrupt morons in govt.... If i am forced via taxation/redistribution to give and it is given to some rich person what can I do? If it is given to some politician's buddy under the table, what can I do ? if it is given to some poor slob who is that way because they goof'd off in life, what can I do? ... meanwhile, someone truly in need could have been a lot better off.
That my friend about that dilemma. This is the true reality. The true scope of the issue. So, if you want to do a deep dive.. lets do it. Quantify/Qualify/Scale and talk about the bigger picture beyond the surface.
> The rich are rich because they produce more volume than they consume and that production volume has a profit margin that is multiplied by other people's consumption
* Want them to stop being rich .. stop consuming so much of their crap.
> More than ever, tools are available for people to better themselves....
* How many people truly pursue them in earnest? Sacrifice social acceptance to make something better of themselves.. Turn off the tv and pick up a book?
> US spends more per pupil than many other countries yet a good majority are dumb as rocks?
* Spend a day at a local highschool and observe what the kids do after school and you'll see why
True sacrifice is what many Americans have forgotten about. It is not foreign to me because I actually went through it. Just because other people haven't and feel guilty doesn't mean they have the authorization to invoke taxes on other people so as to soothe their guilt or feel good about themselves at night. If the guilt is soo overwhelming, and you feel the only solution is $$$, feel free to pick your favorite cause and donate the equivalent tax proceeds.
[QUOTEYou address the point. No one stops you from giving to charity. I do .... Taxation was never intended to be meant for charity. There's an obvious problem w/ it. Let me think of some things... Does this person have family or any other options besides depending on the government? My uncle has a disabled child, he cares for him. His insurance covers the medical costs... He doesn't kick him out in the street ][/quote]Wonderful but this does not describe everyone's situation. Some families aren't very good at helping one another out. Some families cannot afford to as they can barely support themselves. Should they stretch their resources thinner, they're likely going to need some assistance anyway.
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if it is given to some poor slob who is that way because they goof'd off in life, what can I do? ... meanwhile, someone truly in need could have been a lot better off.
What criteria do you use to decide who has "chosen" to be poor and who hasn't?
Again, let's cut all of them off, those who are lazy and those who aren't. They aren't going to go away so then what?
I'm curious to know if anyone here is willing to give 35% of their earnings to the government so that they can continue to spend frivolously on certain overpaid public workers.
Got a kid in school? The taxes you pay aren't directly going to local schools to benefit your kids. Instead they're going to the state where they divide up the tax revenue and pay top administrations in every public department there is. What's leftover gets trickled down to the local schools.
Remember all those "savings" Brown came up with by cutting cell phone use, vehicles for public employees, and providing welfare checks to those who pretend to be disabled? Oh yeah, I remember those too. I sure enjoyed throwing my tax money into the black hole in the past 10 years.
I'm curious to know if anyone here is willing to give 35% of their earnings to the government so that they can continue to spend frivolously on certain overpaid public workers.
Got a kid in school? The taxes you pay aren't directly going to local schools to benefit your kids. Instead they're going to the state where they divide up the tax revenue and pay top administrations in every public department there is. What's leftover gets trickled down to the local schools.
Remember all those "savings" Brown came up with by cutting cell phone use, vehicles for public employees, and providing welfare checks to those who pretend to be disabled? Oh yeah, I remember those too. I sure enjoyed throwing my tax money into the black hole in the past 10 years.
Very valid points especially the school funding. Lottery money was supposed to help our schools. Yet it seems like right after the lottery was created, the schools got worse. I believe there should definitely be more transparency with how tax dollars are spent.
Very valid points especially the school funding. Lottery money was supposed to help our schools. Yet it seems like right after the lottery was created, the schools got worse. I believe there should definitely be more transparency with how tax dollars are spent.
Transparency plus a rigorous analysis on how efficient our tax dollars are being spent. I don't like to see waste here and there when money could be diverted into areas that makes the most sense and has the most impact.
All those money Brown saved in the last several months could've easily gone to funding primary and secondary schools where children from low income family could've easily benefited it, and having equal opportunities down the road.
The middle class Americans are now a part of dying class, quickly joining the underclass due to the larger discrepancy income inequality between middle and the wealthiest class. In the last 30 years, the rich got richer by an average of 33%, while the middle class Americans got poorer by 4%.
I don't have a firm footing in either camp regarding more taxation for the rich or not, but I do know that the one of the primary reasons why the middle class is going extinct is due to the lack of quality workforce. The Americans are being outskilled and outworked by foreign countries willing to earn less. Thirty years ago, that was not the case.
Yet, parties on both sides of the political spectrum know this but they continue to play stupid politics. In the end, the taxpayers suffer. That's why I'm anti-big government -- and it doesn't matter which political party is in power.
Transparency plus a rigorous analysis on how efficient our tax dollars are being spent. I don't like to see waste here and there when money could be diverted into areas that makes the most sense and has the most impact.
All those money Brown saved in the last several months could've easily gone to funding primary and secondary schools where children from low income family could've easily benefited from having equal opportunities down the road.
The middle class Americans are now a part of dying class, quickly joining the underclass due to the larger discrepancy income inequality between middle and the wealthiest class. In the last 30 years, the rich got richer by an average of 33%, while the middle class Americans got poorer by 4%.
I don't have a firm footing in either camp regarding more taxation for the rich or not, but I do know that the one of the primary reasons why the middle class is going extinct is due to the lack of quality workforce. The Americans are being outskilled and outworked by foreign countries willing to earn less. Thirty years ago, that was not the case.
Yet, parties on both sides of the political spectrum know this but they continue to play stupid politics. In the end, the taxpayers suffer. That's why I'm anti-big government -- and it doesn't matter which political party is in power.
I wouldn't say tax the rich more. I wouldn't say tax anyone more. If the rich just stopped avoiding the taxes they already have that would be enough for me. In fact, based on everything you just said, we could likely lower taxes, help the poor and help our schools if the politicians, democrat and republican alike would use the money for legitimate things.
I wouldn't say tax the rich more. I wouldn't say tax anyone more. If the rich just stopped avoiding the taxes they already have that would be enough for me. In fact, based on everything you just said, we could likely lower taxes, help the poor and help our schools if the politicians, democrat and republican alike would use the money for legitimate things.
I agree... get rid of the tax loopholes that have afforded the rich to avoid paying their fair share of taxes. As my family is in a small business in central valley, we've seen other big businesses resort to shady tactics to avoid property taxes.
We need taxpayer-subsidized housing so the gangbangers and mass-reproducing ignorant people will have a place to live. Where, oh where, would they live in an expensive metro area if they couldn't live on the tax dollars of responsible people who live within their means and work for a living?
I care about the gangbangers and ignorant mass-reproducers. Without them, our society would be incomplete. Who, then, would harass us, encumber and burden us?
Wonderful but this does not describe everyone's situation. Some families aren't very good at helping one another out. Some families cannot afford to as they can barely support themselves. Should they stretch their resources thinner, they're likely going to need some assistance anyway.
Afford-ability programs don't reach all that are qualified either.. Because there is an obvious budget. You never can cover all the cases and as an engineer, the last thing you do is try to design a system full of waste to cover a couple of corner cases. As for your sad example, try living it like i did w/o assistance and see how thin you can stretch resources... You wont know until you actually had to go through it .. Otherwise, it seems you'll feel guilty and try to put a band-aid on every cut you see.... Except you'll run out and when someone comes in with blood gushing out their forehead, you'll have no supplies to help them. So, again, you're talking to someone who lived it and watched his parents stretch and stretch ... I actually am a better person because of it. There are obvious cases of need but they are the minority and there are far more people in the world in worse shape.. Unless you feel, those outside of the city/state/country you live in aren't important because you don't have to look at them every day or hear about it... I personally choose to use my funds to help those in desperate need that want to better themselves and am not interested in putting someone in : when i live in something 4x less with roommates to be able to save money. This is why you shouldn't be allowed to tax to support such foolishness... It lends itself to fraud and abuse and those most in need go unheard of...
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Originally Posted by Gentoo
What criteria do you use to decide who has "chosen" to be poor and who hasn't?
Again, let's cut all of them off, those who are lazy and those who aren't. They aren't going to go away so then what?
1st part : What criteria do you use to not know? What i do know of people who choose to be are :
> People who goof off in school.. and boy do they have a long time to do this in ... K-12
> People who decide, I am going to be reckless and get someone pregnant before I can afford to take care of the child
* my parents did this .. they admitted it.. my dad showed me how he had to leave college (a responsible) thing in order to come back and work 4 jobs to support the family he created .. He said, take note son.. don't repeat my mistake .. its hell.. I didn't. I learned from his mistake
> people who make decisions all on their own which result in a depressed potential for achievement ...
If you think hard enough, I am sure you can come up w/ some examples to.. It might be hard if you never lived the extremes of it or actually lived amongst people who made these choices though.... You'll probably just feel sorry for them and feel if you just give them more $$$, everything will get better. Except, it wont in many cases. It's a harsh reality that many irrational optimist don't like to accept... which is fine, just don't ask me for my hard earned money to further your fantasy.
And tell me what's wrong w/ being poor? I was poor. it motivated me beyond everything else to not be poor.. It worked. I guess if you depend on someone for a handout and blame everyone else for your problems it wont work and you'll stay poor.. which again, what is wrong w/ it? You can have access to food/water/shelter ... free libraries .. an education .. and a means to better yourself.. w/ all the resources available, how many of the poor actually take advantage of them and make something better of themselves......... you answer me this question.. I know of personal examples where family members a street over didn't apply themselves and still are poor whereas I am not. What happened there ? Was it money? No .. it kind of wasn't.
2nd part : Appeal to extremes (logical fallacy).
I don't personal get to choose what is done w/ my redirected tax dollars. The state of California does and they do a crappy job of giving it out. Go talk to them. As for money I give to charities/education programs/etc, I use a strict criteria as anyone who truly cares would and do their own homework. I don't rely on some clowns in govt. to do their due diligence. I do it myself. Any other questions?
Last edited by yeahthatguy; 03-16-2011 at 06:24 PM..
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