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View Poll Results: Is Quebec Independence a Legitimate Movement?
Yes 146 65.47%
No 77 34.53%
Voters: 223. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-27-2022, 11:57 AM
 
Location: Toronto
13,356 posts, read 13,601,258 times
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Gents some background

QIMC actually introduced the topic as he cited it quite in depth in here listing off a whole bunch of things that bother him all things LGBTQ and I questioned him about it. I did state that QIMC should start a new thread but alas, the convo continued and others got involved. It also veered off to economic comparisons between Canada U.S.

For what it is worth - I myself created a thread about the topic just to keep things focused where they should be. I also posted some links to some science behind sexuality in general in that thread.

Last edited by fusion2; 07-27-2022 at 12:50 PM..
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Old 07-27-2022, 01:46 PM
 
22,782 posts, read 13,877,961 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Gents some background

QIMC actually introduced the topic as he cited it quite in depth in here listing off a whole bunch of things that bother him all things LGBTQ and I questioned him about it. I did state that QIMC should start a new thread but alas, the convo continued and others got involved. It also veered off to economic comparisons between Canada U.S.

For what it is worth - I myself created a thread about the topic just to keep things focused where they should be. I also posted some links to some science behind sexuality in general in that thread.
fusion; that would normally be the perfect resolution to off topic discussion - but it fails to take into consideration how easily myself and a couple of others rise to even the hint of a mayfly's shadow flitting over the water's surface.
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Old 07-27-2022, 03:17 PM
 
Location: Toronto
13,356 posts, read 13,601,258 times
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Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
fusion; that would normally be the perfect resolution to off topic discussion - but it fails to take into consideration how easily myself and a couple of others rise to even the hint of a mayfly's shadow flitting over the water's surface.
We all do it buddy it is hard to untie that knot, but I tried anyway
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Old 09-16-2022, 06:27 AM
 
Location: Newburyport, MA
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So... let's say Quebec breaks away from Canada and becomes an independent country. What are the implications for the economy, for defense, for international negotiations and influence? I would think that both Quebec *and* the rest of Canada would lose on all these counts - both sides are diminished and then you also now have an international boundary between them instead of a provincial one; but I am just a Yankee, what do Canadians think would happen?
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Old 09-16-2022, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
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Originally Posted by OutdoorLover View Post
So... let's say Quebec breaks away from Canada and becomes an independent country. What are the implications for the economy, for defense, for international negotiations and influence? I would think that both Quebec *and* the rest of Canada would lose on all these counts - both sides are diminished and then you also now have an international boundary between them instead of a provincial one; but I am just a Yankee, what do Canadians think would happen?
I agree, both would be diminished.

If it were to happen, they would probably set a date or dates to slowly extract the tangled web that connects them to give Quebec time to set up it's own passport, separate it from the Canada Pension Plan, and transfer payments etc.

The First Nations and Inuit of Quebec would have a say on whether they would stick with Canada or Quebec.
The Inuit had a separate referendum in 1995 with 75 percent of them voting. 96 percent voted to stay within Canada.

An article about First Nations

https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/f...bate-1.2577550

I believe the current boundaries of Quebec would be changed to a smaller area.

With an uncertain future, the economy in both places would take a hit.

There would be cooperation on defence, but how it would look I have no idea.

International negotiations. Quebec would be on their own. Canada would just be an ally. Influence? Anyones guess.

It would be like Brexit on steroids.
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Old 09-16-2022, 03:38 PM
 
Location: B.C., Canada
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Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post

I believe the current boundaries of Quebec would be changed to a smaller area.
If my understanding of Crown land and its federal governance is correct then my logic tells me the area given to a newly independent New Quebec to keep for itself would be much, much smaller, I should think, since 92% of Quebec's land area is presently Crown land. That Crown land belongs to Canada, it doesn't belong to the province or the people of Quebec. So while the people of a New Quebec might become independent that wouldn't mean they'd get to keep all the land of the whole province (as we know it now) for themselves, not even a third of it, perhaps a little less than a quarter of it.

I'm conjecturing about all of this though. The way I'm seeing it Canada's federal government and Crown, if it's magnaminous, may give away or lease out a sizable portion of the province's land (perhaps more than 8% but less than 25%) to the new independents to suit the independents' basic needs to be self-supporting but no more than that.

Not so much and not in locations where it would interfere with boundary lines and access ways between other Canadian provinces on either side of Quebec today, and not enough that it would interfere with Canada's interests in and protection of the overall natural resources of the province's present 92% Crown lands.

Quebec is big and it has a tremendous amount of natural resources that are on Crown lands and Canada wouldn't be leasing or giving much, if any, of that away to a New Quebec. Canada wouldn't have a reason to give any of it away and might even go so far as to require any sizable populations and towns to uproot themselves and move to the New Quebec region allotted to them. Although, not usually being mean spirited, I can see where Canada might be equitable enough to work out a deal for New Quebecers to simply lease portions of land in locations where there are already appreciable populations and towns and developed lands established.

If Quebec wants to separate from Canada as whole and become a New Quebec then it would have to be made worthwhile and profitable for Canada too.

The same things would apply to any other provinces that wanted to separate from Canada. They don't get to keep all of what they presently believe already belongs to them.

.
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Old 09-16-2022, 03:51 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoisite View Post
If my understanding of Crown land and its federal governance is correct then my logic tells me the area given to a newly independent New Quebec to keep for itself would be much, much smaller, I should think, since 92% of Quebec's land area is presently Crown land. That Crown land belongs to Canada, it doesn't belong to the province or the people of Quebec. So while the people of a New Quebec might become independent that wouldn't mean they'd get to keep all the land of the whole province (as we know it now) for themselves, not even a third of it, perhaps a little less than a quarter of it.

I'm conjecturing about all of this though. The way I'm seeing it Canada's federal government and Crown, if it's magnaminous, may give away or lease out a sizable portion of the province's land (perhaps more than 8% but less than 25%) to the new independents to suit the independents' basic needs to be self-supporting but no more than that.

Not so much and not in locations where it would interfere with boundary lines and access ways between other Canadian provinces on either side of Quebec today, and not enough that it would interfere with Canada's interests in and protection of the overall natural resources of the province's present 92% Crown lands.

Quebec is big and it has a tremendous amount of natural resources that are on Crown lands and Canada wouldn't be leasing or giving much, if any, of that away to a New Quebec. Canada wouldn't have a reason to give any of it away and might even go so far as to require any sizable populations and towns to uproot themselves and move to the New Quebec region allotted to them. Although, not usually being mean spirited, I can see where Canada might be equitable enough to work out a deal for New Quebecers to simply lease portions of land in locations where there are already appreciable populations and towns and developed lands established.

If Quebec wants to separate from Canada as whole and become a New Quebec then it would have to be made worthwhile and profitable for Canada too.

The same things would apply to any other provinces that wanted to separate from Canada. They don't get to keep all of what they presently believe already belongs to them.

.
An interesting take. I wonder if Chevy could comment?
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Old 09-16-2022, 04:19 PM
 
Location: B.C., Canada
13,216 posts, read 11,748,044 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
An interesting take. I wonder if Chevy could comment?
I hope Chevy does weigh in on it, if he's knowledgeable about any of that. For all I know I could be just blowing hot air out of ..... ahem ..... the top of my air-head ..... and maybe Chevy will need to set me straight.

I don't really pay too much attention to people or their reasons for wanting independence from Canada since I personally think they are nuts to want separation from Canada. Separation doesn't make sense to me considering if they did separate it seems they will lose so much, much more of what they don't seem to realize they already have. I don't think they would ever gain anything from it.

Edited to add: Actually I think that if any province did separate they'd lose everything including any kind of independence because it wouldn't take long for them to be invaded and/or annexed by some other nation. Then they'd be completely under the thumb of a less magnaminous and more self-interested nation than what Canada already is.

It would mean nothing but more major trouble and grief for Canada too. Those poor, silly buggers don't appreciate what they are taking for granted and don't seem to recognize or understand what they'd be asking for to come pounce upon them and eradicate them.

.

Last edited by Zoisite; 09-16-2022 at 04:36 PM..
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Old 09-16-2022, 05:20 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoisite View Post
I hope Chevy does weigh in on it, if he's knowledgeable about any of that. For all I know I could be just blowing hot air out of ..... ahem ..... the top of my air-head ..... and maybe Chevy will need to set me straight.

I don't really pay too much attention to people or their reasons for wanting independence from Canada since I personally think they are nuts to want separation from Canada. Separation doesn't make sense to me considering if they did separate it seems they will lose so much, much more of what they don't seem to realize they already have. I don't think they would ever gain anything from it.

Edited to add: Actually I think that if any province did separate they'd lose everything including any kind of independence because it wouldn't take long for them to be invaded and/or annexed by some other nation. Then they'd be completely under the thumb of a less magnaminous and more self-interested nation than what Canada already is.

It would mean nothing but more major trouble and grief for Canada too. Those poor, silly buggers don't appreciate what they are taking for granted and don't seem to recognize or understand what they'd be asking for to come pounce upon them and eradicate them.

.
Agreed.
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Old 09-16-2022, 11:37 PM
 
Location: Alberta, Canada
3,185 posts, read 2,607,131 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoisite View Post
I hope Chevy does weigh in on it, if he's knowledgeable about any of that. For all I know I could be just blowing hot air out of ..... ahem ..... the top of my air-head ..... and maybe Chevy will need to set me straight.
Somebody call me? A fine post, but let me put a few finer points on it.

There are two kinds of Crown land: federal and provincial. It's not the best example, but it's a simple one: If you think about Banff National Park in Alberta and Algonquin Provincial Park in Ontario, you'll see the difference. Banff is on federal Crown land, administered federally from Ottawa (though Banff townsite does have a local mayor and council, constituted under federal law). Algonquin is on provincial Crown land, administered provincially from Queen's Park in Toronto. You may have heard phrases like, "The King in right of Canada," or "The King in right of Ontario," in referring to Crown land, and that tells you who administers the land. Most times, it doesn't really matter; the Crown land belongs to "the government," without specifying, which is all we really need to know in our daily affairs.

But if Quebec separated, it becomes a question of, "Is Crown land in Quebec administered federally or provincially? And if both [which I suspect is the answer, as the same occurs in many provinces], then who owns what? And where is it?"

Of course, there are records and surveys that can answer that question, and I would expect that federal Crown lands in Quebec (and properties, such as CFB Bagotville) would continue to belong to Canada. But Quebec might disagree, which is fine, and such things as "who gets or keeps what" can be worked out at the negotiating table. If Quebec ends up having to buy Canada out of federal Crown lands and/or properties, or lease them, or vice versa (such as Canada wanting to lease and maintain a customs-free corridor between Ontario and the Atlantic Provinces) then as long as the deal is fair, that's fine too.

It may seem simple, but it's a tricky question, and illustrates the challenges any province that wanted to separate would face. There's a lot more to it than holding a referendum, winning it, and declaring the next day that "We're now independent! Our current boundaries will be maintained as the boundaries of our new country!" There would be long negotiations, perhaps taking years, before the boundaries of the new country could be properly defined, according to the ownership of Crown land. Among, of course, other matters that would have to be resolved at the negotiating table.

Does that help?
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