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Stirred it up, have we? Being argumentative is not always a bad thing. It's how points are made. How issues are rolled over and examined. I'm not trying to win anything, by the way...just want to expose a perspective.
Yes, the real estate body does bear some responsibility for the tragedy that has affected millions worldwide. Buyers were greedy too. So were sellers. Plenty of blame to go around, but the lion's share goes to Wall Street and the real estate industry. They knew, "or reasonably should have known" that things were askew. They're the professionals. Buyers and sellers were simply people caught up in the greed psychology without anyone to give them "professional caution" that it didn't make sense.
I'm not poking anyone in the eye here or trying to add salt to anyone's well. Just a cautionary line. I apologize if I hurt any feelings or stepped on toes. It does take courage to go against the larger society and say the things that need to be said.
One of my points is that very few people were yelling "fire!" during the bubble. I'm just yelling "look out!"
I agree with you as to Wall Street being at the center of the financial debacle in this country. When I found out about derivatives (something I didn't even know existed, frankly) . . . I looked at hubby and said - "uh oh." That is the moment when I finally understood what I had been puzzling over for several years: how banks could be offering crazy loans that made no sense to anyone with half a brain. And I truly mean - half a brain. I was looking around and seeing folks getting loans for $350-450K homes who I knew could not be making over $65K a year, and whose automobiles had to have cost more than they were making annually. I thought - what is going to happen when those wacky loans reset . . . and the market is glutted with houses for sale . . . I didn't even factor in what I could not have known - that millions of people would find themselves out of work at the same time those loans would reset.
Of course, these were basically folks younger than I and who had not dealt with the recession and job market (and oil crisis) in the 70s, or the recession and mortgage interest rates of 13% in the 80s . . . and I knew they were merrily signing on the dotted line without even considering how the hell they were going to pay for that no money down, interest only, variable mortgage that would reset in 4-5 years. I guess they all thought they would be making 2 x the salary in four years. Or maybe they thought they would sit in the house a few years, enjoy feeling like they had "made it" . .. and then cash out b/f the loan reset and end up with thousands they had stashed (since the house payment was LESS than they had been renting for previously) . . . and have money for the downpayment on the next home. Who knows? But it was dumb b/c the future is always unknown and you can't bank your future, literally, on speculation.
At least, that is what experience has taught me.
But speculation was exactly the foundation, as it were, of Wall Street. Speculation and Greed.
To blame folks earning a living, though, through selling real estate to willing buyers (bad decisions to sign on the dotted line notwithstanding) . . . that is not where the problem has been. The market was there; no one went up on their commission % . . . buyers were clamoring for houses b/c credit was so loose that a person could lie about his/her salary and no one even cared. So how can that be the realtors' fault? Banks were making it possible for people to be stupid . . . and strangely, folks were willing to take out loans that they KNEW FULL WELL they could never repay. Now, I have no clue as to why anyone would think they should buy a home with a mortgage that will reset requring a payment larger than that person even takes home every month, but it sure the hell happened.
I am not talking about folks who lost their jobs and so ended up in foreclosure b/c they simply couldn't make ends meet. That is not a new story -- it could happen to anyone if they don't have money in reserve or have a mortgage that is so low it can't be paid by working part time and dipping into savings when hard times hit.
I am talking about people who wanted to access a lifestyle their pocketbooks and paychecks could never have provided, so took out loans on property they knew they couldn't afford. To say "the boogie man made me do it," which is what so many have used as their excuse for stupidity, is ludicrous. It's the same mentality that leads folks with low income to go lease or buy a vehicle at a high interest rate. It is stupid and irresponsible, but it isn't someone else's fault for making it available to them.
I agree that greed at the highest level of corporate management is why this whole country is in a mess. We don't produce anything anymore b/c stockholders were willing to sell out to the highest bidder, and CEOs were happy to pocket the cash on their stock options and bonuses. But what folks don't seem to get is . . . those shareholders represent investors that include most of us -- through pension funds, 401Ks, etc. So it isn't as simple as saying . . . "Greed on Wall Street." Those same portfolio managers represent middle America who wanted their 401Ks and IRAs to show growth -- and that is most of us out here who have saved some money for retirement.
For you to tie all this into homes being overpriced in Charlotte . . . sorry . . . I don't see it. What I do see is that you want sellers to take a hit on property you wish to buy. If it is priced at a reasonable price/square foot in comparison to what it would take to build that house today . . . then folks have not overpriced. You are just wanting a bargain price. I have compared property here to that in other metros and prices here are not out of line, even though I do think some of the construction and workmanship in some new neighborhoods is not worthy of the price the homes originally sold for -- and I said that when I moved back here in 2002. I saw houses being constructed in what was originally pastureland that I felt were "sweetheart homes" - look pretty on the outside but god only knows what kind of construction went on under the sheetrock.
But again . . . folks moved here in droves for jobs and so the housing industry was servicing them. They wanted a certain type of house and they were willing to pay a premium price for "their dream" -- which was unavailable to them in the area they presently lived. . . and the banks made it easy for them to do so. I just shook my head in amazement.
You are all aflutter cause you want to buy the big house at a bargain price and you think the market has somehow been propped up here and so there will be another round of prices falling.
You are not the only analyst on this forum. Prices are fair on most properties here and if they aren't, then the seller isn't really serious about selling. When mortgage rates go up, there may be some adjustment as far as prices being lowered, but unless you are paying cash, that strategy is a loser.
And the biggest factor is . . . a house is not just an investment. It is a home. Back in the 60s, no one was looking at their home as an ATM or as a savings account for retirement cashout. It was security. You wanted to pay it off so you had the deed in hand and owned your retirement home. If you can afford a house and want it to be your home b/c you love the neighborhood . . . then worrying about "over paying" on a house that is priced in line with current construction costs is a waste of time.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,693,648 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821
I agree with you as to Wall Street being at the center of the financial debacle in this country. When I found out about derivatives (something I didn't even know existed, frankly) . . . I looked at hubby and said - "uh oh." That is the moment when I finally understood what I had been puzzling over for several years: how banks could be offering crazy loans that made no sense to anyone with half a brain. And I truly mean - half a brain. I was looking around and seeing folks getting loans for $350-450K homes who I knew could not be making over $65K a year, and whose automobiles had to have cost more than they were making annually. I thought - what is going to happen when those wacky loans reset . . . and the market is glutted with houses for sale . . . I didn't even factor in what I could not have known - that millions of people would find themselves out of work at the same time those loans would reset.
Of course, these were basically folks younger than I and who had not dealt with the recession and job market (and oil crisis) in the 70s, or the recession and mortgage interest rates of 13% in the 80s . . . and I knew they were merrily signing on the dotted line without even considering how the hell they were going to pay for that no money down, interest only, variable mortgage that would reset in 4-5 years. I guess they all thought they would be making 2 x the salary in four years. Or maybe they thought they would sit in the house a few years, enjoy feeling like they had "made it" . .. and then cash out b/f the loan reset and end up with thousands they had stashed (since the house payment was LESS than they had been renting for previously) . . . and have money for the downpayment on the next home. Who knows? But it was dumb b/c the future is always unknown and you can't bank your future, literally, on speculation.
At least, that is what experience has taught me.
But speculation was exactly the foundation, as it were, of Wall Street. Speculation and Greed.
To blame folks earning a living, though, through selling real estate to willing buyers (bad decisions to sign on the dotted line notwithstanding) . . . that is not where the problem has been. The market was there; no one went up on their commission % . . . buyers were clamoring for houses b/c credit was so loose that a person could lie about his/her salary and no one even cared. So how can that be the realtors' fault? Banks were making it possible for people to be stupid . . . and strangely, folks were willing to take out loans that they KNEW FULL WELL they could never repay. Now, I have no clue as to why anyone would think they should buy a home with a mortgage that will reset requring a payment larger than that person even takes home every month, but it sure the hell happened.
I am not talking about folks who lost their jobs and so ended up in foreclosure b/c they simply couldn't make ends meet. That is not a new story -- it could happen to anyone if they don't have money in reserve or have a mortgage that is so low it can't be paid by working part time and dipping into savings when hard times hit.
I am talking about people who wanted to access a lifestyle their pocketbooks and paychecks could never have provided, so took out loans on property they knew they couldn't afford. To say "the boogie man made me do it," which is what so many have used as their excuse for stupidity, is ludicrous. It's the same mentality that leads folks with low income to go lease or buy a vehicle at a high interest rate. It is stupid and irresponsible, but it isn't someone else's fault for making it available to them.
I agree that greed at the highest level of corporate management is why this whole country is in a mess. We don't produce anything anymore b/c stockholders were willing to sell out to the highest bidder, and CEOs were happy to pocket the cash on their stock options and bonuses. But what folks don't seem to get is . . . those shareholders represent investors that include most of us -- through pension funds, 401Ks, etc. So it isn't as simple as saying . . . "Greed on Wall Street." Those same portfolio managers represent middle America who wanted their 401Ks and IRAs to show growth -- and that is most of us out here who have saved some money for retirement.
For you to tie all this into homes being overpriced in Charlotte . . . sorry . . . I don't see it. What I do see is that you want sellers to take a hit on property you wish to buy. If it is priced at a reasonable price/square foot in comparison to what it would take to build that house today . . . then folks have not overpriced. You are just wanting a bargain price. I have compared property here to that in other metros and prices here are not out of line, even though I do think some of the construction and workmanship in some new neighborhoods is not worthy of the price the homes originally sold for -- and I said that when I moved back here in 2002. I saw houses being constructed in what was originally pastureland that I felt were "sweetheart homes" - look pretty on the outside but god only knows what kind of construction went on under the sheetrock.
But again . . . folks moved here in droves for jobs and so the housing industry was servicing them. They wanted a certain type of house and they were willing to pay a premium price for "their dream" -- which was unavailable to them in the area they presently lived. . . and the banks made it easy for them to do so. I just shook my head in amazement.
You are all aflutter cause you want to buy the big house at a bargain price and you think the market has somehow been propped up here and so there will be another round of prices falling.
You are not the only analyst on this forum. Prices are fair on most properties here and if they aren't, then the seller isn't really serious about selling. When mortgage rates go up, there may be some adjustment as far as prices being lowered, but unless you are paying cash, that strategy is a loser.
And the biggest factor is . . . a house is not just an investment. It is a home. Back in the 60s, no one was looking at their home as an ATM or as a savings account for retirement cashout. It was security. You wanted to pay it off so you had the deed in hand and owned your retirement home. If you can afford a house and want it to be your home b/c you love the neighborhood . . . then worrying about "over paying" on a house that is priced in line with current construction costs is a waste of time.
I agree, totally, Ani. Prices certainly did fall here, but the biggest decreases were where foreclosures occurred. Fewer foreclosures meant more stable prices. This could mean big hits in one neighborhood & fairly stable prices in an adjacent neighborhood.
The banks granted loans that clearly should not have been granted. Some realtors were in cahoots with them, but to paint all realtors with one brush is not right.
I agree, totally, Ani. Prices certainly did fall here, but the biggest decreases were where foreclosures occurred. Fewer foreclosures meant more stable prices. This could mean big hits in one neighborhood & fairly stable prices in an adjacent neighborhood.
The banks granted loans that clearly should not have been granted. Some realtors were in cahoots with them, but to paint all realtors with one brush is not right.
Yes, you are on target with the affect foreclosures had in particular neighborhoods. I have watched it all play out, even to my street (wh/ had no foreclosures, thank goodness).
There were folks in cahoots in many industries, including mortgage brokers, appraisers, contractors. I was shocked to find out a client I had been courting for 18 months was indicted in February for fraud in re: to real estate transactions! OH MY!! I never even suspected . . .
I hope anyone and everyone who engaged in fraudulent activity gets indicted. It won't make it right for those who were lied to, but at least it addresses an individual's unethical behavior.
But as you said, one cannot paint everyone with the same brush.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,693,648 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821
Yes, you are on target with the affect foreclosures had in particular neighborhoods. I have watched it all play out, even to my street (wh/ had no foreclosures, thank goodness).
There were folks in cahoots in many industries, including mortgage brokers, appraisers, contractors. I was shocked to find out a client I had been courting for 18 months was indicted in February for fraud in re: to real estate transactions! OH MY!! I never even suspected . . .
I hope anyone and everyone who engaged in fraudulent activity gets indicted. It won't make it right for those who were lied to, but at least it addresses an individual's unethical behavior.
But as you said, one cannot paint everyone with the same brush.
Honestly, I don't know what ranting about realtors & making accusations has to do with this thread. The OP wanted dirt cheap on the edge of nowhere & was given two perfectly good suggestions. The OP wanted that place to be Waxhaw, but it isn't. It's backed up by people in Lancaster County, who are further out, yet commuting in towards Charlotte. That has nothing to do with how many realtors were in cahoots with crooked bankers & not all bankers were crooked.
Honestly, I don't know what ranting about realtors & making accusations has to do with this thread. The OP wanted dirt cheap on the edge of nowhere & was given two perfectly good suggestions. The OP wanted that place to be Waxhaw, but it isn't. It's backed up by people in Lancaster County, who are further out, yet commuting in towards Charlotte. That has nothing to do with how many realtors were in cahoots with crooked bankers & not all bankers were crooked.
Good point. Well, the newcomer to the thread is suggesting that property here has been artificially propped up on price due to some sort of possible conspiracy with banking institutions here. At least, that is what I got from his inference. Maybe I read it wrong . . .
You are right - we have given suggestions to the OP who first created this thread (and never returned). Seems the thread's resurrector (Borg) is upset b/c he can't buy a home at a substantially reduced price in the location he prefers. OH WELL.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,693,648 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821
Good point. Well, the newcomer to the thread is suggesting that property here has been artificially propped up on price due to some sort of possible conspiracy with banking institutions here. At least, that is what I got from his inference. Maybe I read it wrong . . .
You are right - we have given suggestions to the OP who first created this thread (and never returned). Seems the thread's resurrector (Borg) is upset b/c he can't buy a home at a substantially reduced price in the location he prefers. OH WELL.
True. This thread ties to a previous thread made by the OP. I had responded in the previous thread & remembered the poster & posted the previous thread in post #2 of this thread.
While this thread is about buying property for pennies on the dollar, it's about doing that in fringe-y areas & apparently the OP didn't want it to not be Waxhaw, because he/she was told to look in Cherryville & Clover. I'm sure that there are other places that would fit for the OP, but those were the suggestions.
What happened after the collapse had everything to do with what happened during the bubble. Making accusations doesn't change that.
Interesting statements. Good reasoning based on facts available. I agree with much that you've said. Very intelligently presented. A very solid viewpoint...both.
DO know this though. I am not looking to get a home at pennies on the dollar; nor am I upset. I'm very content in my present homes, and I've been looking as far away as Lisbon and Brazil for something else. I am saying that I noticed an anomaly while looking. Pray that you're right and that I'm wrong. There is no shame in being wrong.
Finally, being a newcomer doesn't make me less informed or capable. Sometimes the problem with being the smartest person in the boardroom is that everyone else thinks you're crazy.
I flew to Charlotte in late-January to check out houses for a potential move, and I was shocked (to some extent) at some of the prices. There are houses that are definitely priced way beyond market, but it might be a case of the seller being stubborn, or they just have a bad agent that's not honest about what they should put it on the market for.
The first house we saw was actually the most expensive option (about $375K, from what I remember). The ad looked great, but the layout wasn't ideal, the cabinets were very cheap, and the owner just didn't take care of it very well. It was about 10 years old, but there were already warning signs. It's been on the market for over 6 months and hasn't sold, nor has there been a price reduction. Since it was the first house we saw, we didn't know at the time how overpriced it was (except for our agent saying so). But after looking at 20 or so houses, there were plenty of better houses for $50K less money.
Maybe the owner doesn't have money to bring to the table in order to sell it at market value so they're hoping for a hail mary, or maybe they're just clueless - but either way, the house was overpriced.
On the other hand, we did see a few houses that were priced much better. None of them suited our needs completely, but at least the price was in line with the market. So while I think it's absurd to say the entire area is overpriced, I think it's fair to say that some individual houses are priced completely out of touch with reality.
This would be the Reason natives don't really like the transients who move here. What makes you think you're so special that you're OWED something dude? You wanna live in a certain area? You pay market rate. Right now, it seems every 4th person from NY and OH moves to Charlotte. Law of supply and demand.
And frankly, if you're looking for something cheap so you can brag to your buddies back home how you "stole" this place from some "dumb southerner, you're 30 years too late. We got wise to that game a long time ago. So do your research and quit you're whining. You want each aw, you gonna pay for it cupcake!
Let me be frank...I don't know what planet you're on!
I've been living in Western Union County now for over six months, a job transferee from Ohio and have been excited about buying a home here in the Waxhaw/Weddington Area. After searching countless hours of MLS queries, driving around, and reading numerous housing boards, including this one, I can't, for the life of me figure out what makes you think your home is worth as much as you're asking for it. Recent sales? Truely, is seems like this city is keeping up with the Joneses on a whole new level. And, despite all of the nice, new stuff around here, everyone looks depressed, either that or medicated. Anyone else think so?
What is your asking price based upon? What you paid for it 7 years ago with a return of +20%. Perhaps it's all of the 'one-of-a-kind' custom upgrades (that you and your hundred other neighbors have), or is it based on something that I'm just missing?
Please, sell me your house! I'm a willing, able, and ready buyer. But, don't insult me by listing your home for 50-100K more than it's worth (as established by the market, not Zillow, Trulia, or your pva). Wake up! If your home hasn't sold yet, there's probably a good reason. Most likely, it's way overpriced and I'm not even looking in that range.
Hey, I understand, I took a hit on my house in Ohio when I moved here, but come on people, this city, and more specifically, this area is way overvalued/overpriced for what people are asking.
Signed,
Bewildered
This is simple, people will sale their houses for what anyone will buy them for. If it's completely overpriced and someone pays it then that's why it's overpriced. If it's overpriced and no one buys it; then you keep lowering the price until someone pays it even if it's still overpriced. Your not going to buy their home overpriced but someone else may. They don't care if it's you or not. Good Luck!
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Imagine if you were from here
