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My husband and I are comparing cities for an upcoming move that will hopefully be a possible permanent place. We've moved lots (NOLA, B-More, Cinci and now C-bus) for his medical training. He is a midwesterner (Omaha) and I am a Jersey native.
We are looking at three cities and comparing COL, access to nature, jobs/careers for both and distance to family. These three cities all appear to be in driving distance to his and a flight home to mine.
I am a yoga teacher, hoping to expand in the healing arts therapies via integrative health, ect.
We love culture and the arts (I spent much time in NYC growing up), walking neighborhoods, historic architecture but also hiking, natural living, ect.
No children yet but of course thinking about schools --likely Catholic or private.
Thoughts?
Thus far we've loved all the places we've lived with Cinci being our favorite Midwest city (Columbus feels a bit too small).
Neighborhoods we like:
Chi-- Oak Park, De Paul University
Denver-- City Park
STL- University City
Denver and St. Louis have their charms, but I think Chicago wins this contest; Chi will be the most expensive, but still reasonable, esp when compared to NJ; flight to NJ will be quite easy, with no transfers; just no end of cultural things to do in Chi, and you might wind up with housing overlooking Lake Michigan, with fantastic views..
If Cincy is your favorite midwestern city, I think you picked good places in Chicago.
Cincy certainly a top city for historic 19th century architecture, and has LOTS of trees, as it is so hilly, and you have bluffs and ravines that are not really buildable slopes that are left as parks. As you know, Chicago is pancake flat, although there a few hilly areas to go hiking believe it or not, 20-25 miles to the southwest in the Palos Forest Preserves, as well as the Indiana Dunes 40 miles away to the southeast-east.
I love the DePaul area: If you are used to Cincys historic rowhouses, I would say the DePaul neighborhood is a great place to live in the city (as well as the Old Town Triangle) as compared to the more overwhelming areas of tacky high rises, and lack of trees that you find in River North, Lakeview, etc.
If you know the CUF area just south of U of Cincy, DePaul is similar. Oak Park is also beautiful with lots of victorian homes, and really homes of all styles of the 1st half of the 20th century. Its where I live! The Cincy equivalent might be Hyde Park in Cincy.
Overall, Chicago is an enormous city and can be difficult to figure where the more toned down, charming, yet vibrant areas are. St. Louis as a whole is a near equivalent to Cincy. BTW: University City is similar to both Oak Park as well as the DePaul area.
As far as Denver: If you are looking for the most environmentally aware, most physically fit, and active, then Denver is the best. In fact urban areas of the western half of the country are generally like that. More "granola", more into outdoor activities to keep themselves fit, etc. Where in the midwest, you have to look a little to figure where that crowd hangs out.
Thus far we've loved all the places we've lived with Cinci being our favorite Midwest city (Columbus feels a bit too small).
Neighborhoods we like:
Chi-- Oak Park, De Paul University
Denver-- City Park
STL- University City
I can't speak for Denver, but I've lived in U-City and spent quite a bit of time in Oak Park and around DePaul.
Hiking: Denver, hands down, obviously. STL next, followed by Chicago. STL is hillier, and has very quick proximity to hill country and rivers/streams in addition to good trails in the metro. You can drive down 44 and get to hilly areas about 25-30 minutes from downtown w/ nice rivers and caves about within an hour. There are also bluffs overlooking the river north of the city. Chicago has the lake, but if you're looking to do hiking, the best you can do within 30-45 minutes of the neighborhoods you like here are trails in forest preserves, which personally, leave a lot to be desired. Wisconsin has some better recreation areas, but those are a 2-4 hours north. The dunes are also fairly close, but again, on a decent weekend, you can expect it to take you 1:10-1:30 to get there.
Arts: Chicago hands down. STL next with a scene that is better than Cincy or Columbus and roughly comparable to a place like Pittsburgh (symphony quality, art museum, etc.). Denver is the new kid on the block here and it takes a lot of time to develop the history/legacy to support an arts scene like STL, and much more than just that to come anywhere near CHicago.
Cost of Living: STL easy, followed by Denver, then Chicago. U-City schools aren't very good, but if you're looking to go the private route eventually, that won't matter. You can also opt to pay tuition for future kids to attend neighborhing Clayton schools. At the very worst, Clayton schools are top 3 in the state. Oak Park has great schools, but I would put them a notch below Clayton. Actually, those two burbs are very comparable to one another, so you may want to look into Clayton if you go the STL route too.
Walkable neighborhoods with character: Chicago wins that one easily with at least a dozen walkable neighborhoods within 30 minutes of DePaul. Plenty of shopping and street activity. Oak Park is also a very walkable, older burb. I don't have much experience with Denver, but from what I have seen, STL's neighborhoods are architecturally more interesting and have a better urban feel about them. With the growth of Denver, that comparison could look very different in 15 years, however. U-City near Delmar is a more walkable area to me than Oak Park near Lake, but the rest of O Park is more urban than U-City. FWIW, STL is probably as close to what you'll be able to find anywhere to Cincy in a more liberal package (similar to Baltimore in that respect), but you also mentioned growing up around NYC. If you're after a lighter version of NYC, Chicago is the easy choice. If you're looking for a slightly heavier version of Cincy, STL is it. If nature is the big pull, it's got to be Denver.
Jobs: It sounds like we were in a very similar position to you and your husband 6 months ago. I take it your husband is a physician. My wife is an attending phys in a specialty at a large hospital in Chicagoland now. The place wasn't a good fit in terms of the type of work being done at the hospital + call schedule for us. They are a small team, on a different type of call model that required her to be within 30 min of the hospital an average of 2 days/week. She would get paged or need to stay at the hospital at all hours for those 2 days (in addition to her normal 8-5 work). She was a zombie for the post call days and was tucking in early the day before call. The time and schedule restriction limited our ability to get to enjoy the things we did in Chicago when she was a fellow. We couldn't go to certain neighborhoods, go to visit certain friends, etc based upon her schedule and were generally confined to our immediate area. Moving to a different hospital in Chicagoland would have the same constraints, and it would also mean that we would need to move across town, increasing my commute from 30 min to an hour. We looked at STL and found a job that would pay her a considerable sum more, which is typical for a lot of specialties when comparing salaries of the tier 1 cities vs. the tier 2. She will be taking in-house call (rather than getting paged) 1x per week. There will be less for us to do in STL in terms of urban experience, no doubt about it, but we will be able to enjoy it more because the schedule is less restrictive and the urban area is smaller, allowing us to go about anywhere on any day she isn't on. Financially, we will be much better off too. That was a long-winded explanation of our situation, but I guess my takeway advice would be for you guys to look at all 3 places, and figure out the type of lifestyle you can have comparing positions where your husband gets offers. In the medical field, this can have a much bigger impact on your enjoyment of living in a place than the differences between those places taken in isolation. In our case, 50K more a year + a better work-life situation was a no-brainer.
I can't speak for Denver, but I've lived in U-City and spent quite a bit of time in Oak Park and around DePaul.
Hiking: Denver, hands down, obviously. STL next, followed by Chicago. STL is hillier, and has very quick proximity to hill country and rivers/streams in addition to good trails in the metro. You can drive down 44 and get to hilly areas about 25-30 minutes from downtown w/ nice rivers and caves about within an hour. There are also bluffs overlooking the river north of the city. Chicago has the lake, but if you're looking to do hiking, the best you can do within 30-45 minutes of the neighborhoods you like here are trails in forest preserves, which personally, leave a lot to be desired. Wisconsin has some better recreation areas, but those are a 2-4 hours north. The dunes are also fairly close, but again, on a decent weekend, you can expect it to take you 1:10-1:30 to get there.
Arts: Chicago hands down. STL next with a scene that is better than Cincy or Columbus and roughly comparable to a place like Pittsburgh (symphony quality, art museum, etc.). Denver is the new kid on the block here and it takes a lot of time to develop the history/legacy to support an arts scene like STL, and much more than just that to come anywhere near CHicago.
Cost of Living: STL easy, followed by Denver, then Chicago. U-City schools aren't very good, but if you're looking to go the private route eventually, that won't matter. You can also opt to pay tuition for future kids to attend neighborhing Clayton schools. At the very worst, Clayton schools are top 3 in the state. Oak Park has great schools, but I would put them a notch below Clayton. Actually, those two burbs are very comparable to one another, so you may want to look into Clayton if you go the STL route too.
Walkable neighborhoods with character: Chicago wins that one easily with at least a dozen walkable neighborhoods within 30 minutes of DePaul. Plenty of shopping and street activity. Oak Park is also a very walkable, older burb. I don't have much experience with Denver, but from what I have seen, STL's neighborhoods are architecturally more interesting and have a better urban feel about them. With the growth of Denver, that comparison could look very different in 15 years, however. U-City near Delmar is a more walkable area to me than Oak Park near Lake, but the rest of O Park is more urban than U-City. FWIW, STL is probably as close to what you'll be able to find anywhere to Cincy in a more liberal package (similar to Baltimore in that respect), but you also mentioned growing up around NYC. If you're after a lighter version of NYC, Chicago is the easy choice. If you're looking for a slightly heavier version of Cincy, STL is it. If nature is the big pull, it's got to be Denver.
Jobs: It sounds like we were in a very similar position to you and your husband 6 months ago. I take it your husband is a physician. My wife is an attending phys in a specialty at a large hospital in Chicagoland now. The place wasn't a good fit in terms of the type of work being done at the hospital + call schedule for us. They are a small team, on a different type of call model that required her to be within 30 min of the hospital an average of 2 days/week. She would get paged or need to stay at the hospital at all hours for those 2 days (in addition to her normal 8-5 work). She was a zombie for the post call days and was tucking in early the day before call. The time and schedule restriction limited our ability to get to enjoy the things we did in Chicago when she was a fellow. We couldn't go to certain neighborhoods, go to visit certain friends, etc based upon her schedule and were generally confined to our immediate area. Moving to a different hospital in Chicagoland would have the same constraints, and it would also mean that we would need to move across town, increasing my commute from 30 min to an hour. We looked at STL and found a job that would pay her a considerable sum more, which is typical for a lot of specialties when comparing salaries of the tier 1 cities vs. the tier 2. She will be taking in-house call (rather than getting paged) 1x per week. There will be less for us to do in STL in terms of urban experience, no doubt about it, but we will be able to enjoy it more because the schedule is less restrictive and the urban area is smaller, allowing us to go about anywhere on any day she isn't on. Financially, we will be much better off too. That was a long-winded explanation of our situation, but I guess my takeway advice would be for you guys to look at all 3 places, and figure out the type of lifestyle you can have comparing positions where your husband gets offers. In the medical field, this can have a much bigger impact on your enjoyment of living in a place than the differences between those places taken in isolation. In our case, 50K more a year + a better work-life situation was a no-brainer.
I agree that STL does have the edge in terms of outdoor pursuits with the Ozarks not that far, but its not THAT close. It still takes about an hour to get to places with public lands with hiking trails. And have you ever been to some of the bigger forest preserves in Chicagoland? The Palos area would really suprise you. Most Chicago area people are almost unaware of its existence: You can get lost in the woods there (14,000 acres in the whole complex) with 100 foot bluffs in places.
Nothing against STL, and I respect your opinion, but honestly I find Cincinnati lacks nothing when comparing with St. Louis. Except for the fact that STL has always done a better job marketing itself. The city limits of STL and the metro population are only slightly bigger. The conservative reputation of Cincinnati is largely from the thousands of Appalachians that migrated there looking for work from WWII through the 70s. There are certain neighborhoods where they form a high concentration and it does feel very Kentucky-Baptist no doubt. Outside of there, the eclectic, diverse areas of Cincy (Mt. Adams, East Walnut Hills, Gateway quarter of Over-the-Rhine, Clifton/U of Cincy area) are easily among the cool urban neighborhoods that taken individually are just as cool as what you would even find in Chicago.
The neighborhoods dominated by east-coast style 19th century rowhouses are much more extensive in Cincy, and its cultural institutions including the symphony orchestra, art museum, 1st Jewish college, are outstanding and the oldest west of the Appalachians, predating even Chicagos counterparts.
I can speak for Denver, and while I love my friends there, I really would only go back for a great job. The city itself is not urban and walkable like Chicago, the culture... well, let's say that it beats Casper WY hands down!, and it's not nearly as progressive as one might think. I heard how great it was environmentally, but my friends, liberal dems mostly, were still using toxic cleaning products and eating factory farmed fast food, without question or thought -- and these are educated, "upscale" for Denver, aware people, but Denver is really not the same as the West Coast at all. I'd choose Chicago definitely.
Also, I'll add that Denver sunshine is great, Boulder is AWESOME (I love the Peoples Republic) and I found people to be much friendlier than in the NW. You didn't say if you'll be renting or buying, but to find a nice place in Denver to rent is expensive and difficult, and you end up driving EVERYWHERE. Even in City Park because public transportation is not great, so you're driving if you want to go to a Whole Foods (the only really upscale grocery there) or a good movie theater or anything. Of course, I moved from Portland, OR in the Pearl to Denver, so I was really comparing perfect, shiny organic apples to canned peaches. I found the restaurant/food scene, the farmer's markets, the wine scene, the art scene and the "lakes" to be totally lame relative to what I'm used to and expect. But like I said, I do love my friends there, it's just Denver feels kinda 1999 to me. It's got some catching up to do.
Oh, and one thing no one mentions -- the snakes -- and while bites to humans are relatively rare, there were a dozen or so dogs bitten by beginning of summer 2010 in Denver dog parks and surrounding areas. I hate snakes! SO if you're a dog owner, beware of the snake problem even in some of the popular dog areas.
My vote would be for Denver WAAAAY above the other two, and my late wife, also from NJ, would have said the same. But historic architecture would be limited, as Denver wasn't even founded until 1858 and was a rough and tumble gold and silver mining town for awhile after that, but weather and recreation in the Rocky Mountains certainly surpass anything Chicago or St Louis have to offer.
I can speak for Denver, and while I love my friends there, I really would only go back for a great job. The city itself is not urban and walkable like Chicago, the culture... well, let's say that it beats Casper WY hands down!, and it's not nearly as progressive as one might think. I heard how great it was environmentally, but my friends, liberal dems mostly, were still using toxic cleaning products and eating factory farmed fast food, without question or thought -- and these are educated, "upscale" for Denver, aware people, but Denver is really not the same as the West Coast at all. I'd choose Chicago definitely.
You find that everywhere.
Haley, I don't want to judge you when I don't even know you, but looking at your previous posts, it just sounds to me like Chicago to you is the bubble known as "Lincoln Park-Lakeview-Wicker Park-Bucktown-Roscoe Village-Gold Coast"
Chicago is more urban and has much more cultural things to do, but on a per capita basis, you are still going to find much greater environmental awareness in and western metropolitan area. Besides Denver, and other intermountain west metro areas have been growing largely from Californians/west coasters moving in.
I know Denver as well, and I felt that when I came back to the Chicago area, I actually had to look for people who shared my values.
My husband and I are comparing cities for an upcoming move that will hopefully be a possible permanent place. We've moved lots (NOLA, B-More, Cinci and now C-bus) for his medical training. He is a midwesterner (Omaha) and I am a Jersey native.
We are looking at three cities and comparing COL, access to nature, jobs/careers for both and distance to family. These three cities all appear to be in driving distance to his and a flight home to mine.
I am a yoga teacher, hoping to expand in the healing arts therapies via integrative health, ect.
We love culture and the arts (I spent much time in NYC growing up), walking neighborhoods, historic architecture but also hiking, natural living, ect.
No children yet but of course thinking about schools --likely Catholic or private.
Thoughts?
Thus far we've loved all the places we've lived with Cinci being our favorite Midwest city (Columbus feels a bit too small).
Neighborhoods we like:
Chi-- Oak Park, De Paul University
Denver-- City Park
STL- University City
Chicago wins for urban living. No contest.
If you like Cincinnati, St. Louis is practically a carbon copy except that whole part about it being board-flat instead of hilly. I can't really speak about Denver since I haven't been there since I was a kid. But if outdoor activities is your highest priority, then so should Denver be. If you're looking for a balance between city life and easily accessible outdoor recreational opportunities, St. Louis is probably your winner.
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