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Revelation was a vision/dream. How many dreams make no physical sense whatsoever? It was meant to express something symbolically rather than literally. Much of Revelation was taken from the Book of Enoch and various other Jewish Apocalypses from about 150 BC. The 'Lake of Fire' was originally believed to be a sulphurous lake underground literally connected to Ge-Hinnom, the Valley outside Jerusalem (also known as Gehenna). It was connected to the 'Accursed Valley' spoken about in the OT and in 1 Enoch 27.
Revelation was a vision/dream. How many dreams make no physical sense whatsoever? It was meant to express something symbolically rather than literally. Much of Revelation was taken from the Book of Enoch and various other Jewish Apocalypses from about 150 BC. The 'Lake of Fire' was originally believed to be a sulphurous lake underground literally connected to Ge-Hinnom, the Valley outside Jerusalem (also known as Gehenna). It was connected to the 'Accursed Valley' spoken about in the OT and in 1 Enoch 27.
I know what it was taken from and I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in the book of Enoch. In fact, I think there is something terribly wrong with that book, and it goes against so much scripture. I am aware that there are some verses that link to it from the Bible, but not enough for me. I've been studying Hebrew/Jewish thought and Babylonian/Egyptian religions, and I think there is a lot of paganism in the Bible that got mixed up with the truth. I'm trying to put some pieces together. The sea of glass/lake of fire in Revelation has nothing to do with any literal fire, IMO.
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,544 posts, read 56,068,476 times
Reputation: 11862
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow
I know what it was taken from and I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in the book of Enoch. In fact, I think there is something terribly wrong with that book, and it goes against so much scripture. I am aware that there are some verses that link to it from the Bible, but not enough for me. I've been studying Hebrew/Jewish thought and Babylonian/Egyptian religions, and I think there is a lot of paganism in the Bible that got mixed up with the truth. I'm trying to put some pieces together. The sea of glass/lake of fire in Revelation has nothing to do with any literal fire, IMO.
I'm working on it.
I didn't even know glass had been invented around the time of Christ, to be honest, lol.
I didn't even know glass had been invented around the time of Christ, to be honest, lol.
The sea of glass has something to do with some kind of calm energy, I think, vs. the people tormented in the "lake of fire." But there is the verse with the fire mingled with the glass. The "sea" stands for the mass of humanity. If that makes any sense. People are tormented by the "beast" and the "*****" (religion) sits on the waters.
Here are some points for you to ponder. Just some things I have read/studied on, perhaps you have too.
Rev 17:15 Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.
sea = waters = the vast uncalled people, mankind, carnality
raging sea = man's carnality, raging, uncontrolled, destructive, like a storm
What is the beast? Ecc 3:18 tells us men are beasts ("and that they might see that they themselves are beasts").
[NIV] Rev 13:18 This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.
[CLV] Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has a mind calculate the number of the wild beast, for it is the number of mankind, and its number is six hundred sixty-six.
The beast's number is not of "a man" as some translations propose, but it is simply "man's number" - it is mankind as the CLV tells us. beast = mankind = carnality - his number is 666 (side note: 666 is one step short of perfection: 777)
Notice where John was standing when he saw the beast rise up out of the sea:
Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
John is not in the sea, but he is standing just next to the sea, on sand (remember: do not build your house on sand) - he has just fallen and come out of the sea. He is no longer part of the sea and is now on the sand - on the lowest part of the earth.
In general there are three spiritual "levels" (for lack of a better word here) that are described:
1. sea = lowest
2. earth = above sea
3. heavens = above all
This is describing the level of understanding and how close one is to God. Those in the sea are the vast majority of mankind and have no idea what is going on. The sea is farthest from God, the earth is a bit closer, and the heavens are of course closest to God because that is where God dwells. (What are the heavens? Its not some place up in the clouds - God lives within His people - they are His temple - but that is for another post).
Observe:
Rev 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!"
Why are creatures "on the sea" specifically mentioned? This is talking about the sea of humanity. Those in the sea will worship and praise God.
Rev 20:12 The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
Again, why mention the "dead" (generic) being judged, and then specifically mention the dead out of the sea? What do you think this means?
So then we come to the sea of glass:
Rev 4:6 Also before the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.
Rev 15:2 And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name.
Again, notice, those who have overcome the beast (carnality) have left the sea, and are now standing beside the sea on the seashore. The sea is no longer raging, it has been calmed (like you said in your post) - it is now a sea of glass - mixed with fire. What is the fire? Think God's consuming fire, His ministers of fire, the word of God is fire, fire purging and fire purifying, and fire saving - I think you know all this. So when you overcome you are now on the sand - the very lowest part of the earth - right next to the sea. We still have a ways to go before we are in the heavens.
One final point:
Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
Eventually there is no longer any sea! So at least we can be rest assured that the sea of glass is not tormented forever with the fire that is mixed in. What happened to the sea?
These are just some things to think on. It is all IMHO, although I have seen these concepts in several different studies and it makes some sense to me, although there is much more to it than this. Of course this won't make any sense to someone who insists that there is ONE future antichrist who's number is 666 and almost all of us will be tricked into worshiping him. Its funny because we all have already been worshiping the beast (self) and don't even realize it.
Hope this gives you some food for thought herefornow...
What did Jesus do?
- He walked on water
- He calmed the raging waters and the storm cleared up: He calmed the seas
- He told the disciples to trust him that He would be able to calm the sea
Why is it called a "lake" of fire?
- a lake doesn't seem very big, why not an "ocean" of fire?
- why not something more scary like a volcano of fire?
Here are some points for you to ponder. Just some things I have read/studied on, perhaps you have too.
Rev 17:15 Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.
sea = waters = the vast uncalled people, mankind, carnality
raging sea = man's carnality, raging, uncontrolled, destructive, like a storm
What is the beast? Ecc 3:18 tells us men are beasts ("and that they might see that they themselves are beasts").
[NIV] Rev 13:18 This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.
[CLV] Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has a mind calculate the number of the wild beast, for it is the number of mankind, and its number is six hundred sixty-six.
The beast's number is not of "a man" as some translations propose, but it is simply "man's number" - it is mankind as the CLV tells us. beast = mankind = carnality - his number is 666 (side note: 666 is one step short of perfection: 777)
Notice where John was standing when he saw the beast rise up out of the sea:
Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
John is not in the sea, but he is standing just next to the sea, on sand (remember: do not build your house on sand) - he has just fallen and come out of the sea. He is no longer part of the sea and is now on the sand - on the lowest part of the earth.
In general there are three spiritual "levels" (for lack of a better word here) that are described:
1. sea = lowest
2. earth = above sea
3. heavens = above all
This is describing the level of understanding and how close one is to God. Those in the sea are the vast majority of mankind and have no idea what is going on. The sea is farthest from God, the earth is a bit closer, and the heavens are of course closest to God because that is where God dwells. (What are the heavens? Its not some place up in the clouds - God lives within His people - they are His temple - but that is for another post).
Observe:
Rev 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!"
Why are creatures "on the sea" specifically mentioned? This is talking about the sea of humanity. Those in the sea will worship and praise God.
Rev 20:12 The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
Again, why mention the "dead" (generic) being judged, and then specifically mention the dead out of the sea? What do you think this means?
So then we come to the sea of glass:
Rev 4:6 Also before the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.
Rev 15:2 And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name.
Again, notice, those who have overcome the beast (carnality) have left the sea, and are now standing beside the sea on the seashore. The sea is no longer raging, it has been calmed (like you said in your post) - it is now a sea of glass - mixed with fire. What is the fire? Think God's consuming fire, His ministers of fire, the word of God is fire, fire purging and fire purifying, and fire saving - I think you know all this. So when you overcome you are now on the sand - the very lowest part of the earth - right next to the sea. We still have a ways to go before we are in the heavens.
One final point:
Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
Eventually there is no longer any sea! So at least we can be rest assured that the sea of glass is not tormented forever with the fire that is mixed in. What happened to the sea?
These are just some things to think on. It is all IMHO, although I have seen these concepts in several different studies and it makes some sense to me, although there is much more to it than this. Of course this won't make any sense to someone who insists that there is ONE future antichrist who's number is 666 and almost all of us will be tricked into worshiping him. Its funny because we all have already been worshiping the beast (self) and don't even realize it.
Hope this gives you some food for thought herefornow...
Thanks for the post, legoman. Ecclesiastes says we ARE the beast. Yes, I guess we are. We all need to be tamed. Beasts are wild and chaotic and the "lake" is full of torment. Getting to that "sea of glass........"
Well, that will be nice.
(now, if I can figure out how Jesus turned water into wine without an explosion...)
Thanks for the post, legoman. Ecclesiastes says we ARE the beast. Yes, I guess we are. We all need to be tamed. Beasts are wild and chaotic and the "lake" is full of torment. Getting to that "sea of glass........"
Well, that will be nice.
(now, if I can figure out how Jesus turned water into wine without an explosion...)
There is more to Revelation 15 than meets the eye...
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground...
19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air...
Male and beasts are made of the same stuff!
22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman...
But out of it...God grafted a female which did not come directly from dust
Genesis 3:14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, upon thy belly, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life...
20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve (meaning life); because she was the mother of all living.
Just as God's Spirit dwelt in "The Christ" so it is that evil could also dwell in a specific man...thus, it is a number of man in Rev.13 (imho)
Again, notice, those who have overcome the beast (carnality) have left the sea, and are now standing beside the sea on the seashore. The sea is no longer raging, it has been calmed (like you said in your post) - it is now a sea of glass - mixed with fire. What is the fire? Think God's consuming fire, His ministers of fire, the word of God is fire, fire purging and fire purifying, and fire saving - I think you know all this. So when you overcome you are now on the sand - the very lowest part of the earth - right next to the sea. We still have a ways to go before we are in the heavens.
Before electricity was invented...the ancient world used fire for survival and learned how to create it by fusing rocks and kindlings rigorously, which required patience and strength to keep going...their existence was solely dependent on it...
Once this was accomplished...they deviced primitive torches to guide their way in darkness...-
I love Bonfire pits and always manage to have one wherever I live. My family/grandkids always gather here to watch a full moon while roasting marshmallows and sausages...peals of laughter could be heard from the backyard...
What did Jesus do?
- He walked on water
- He calmed the raging waters and the storm cleared up: He calmed the seas
- He told the disciples to trust him that He would be able to calm the sea
Why is it called a "lake" of fire?
- a lake doesn't seem very big, why not an "ocean" of fire?
- why not something more scary like a volcano of fire?
More points to ponder..
Do you wonder if the vision of glass was something like a grid of calm energy? From a physics standpoint? Maybe I'm reaching, but many verses talk about things that the writers either weren't supposed to talk about (according to them) or couldn't be explained to people in this physical realm. So, I'm just wondering how science can explain some of this better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ans57
There is more to Revelation 15 than meets the eye...
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground...
19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air...
Male and beasts are made of the same stuff!
22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman...
But out of it...God grafted a female which did not come directly from dust
Genesis 3:14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, upon thy belly, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life...
20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve (meaning life); because she was the mother of all living.
Just as God's Spirit dwelt in "The Christ" so it is that evil could also dwell in a specific man...thus, it is a number of man in Rev.13 (imho)
You may call me "a consummate feminist"...
Peace!
Good thoughts, as always, ans.
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)
Just a thought:
There is more to Revelation 15 than meets the eye...
