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Twin did you intenionally leave out the word will in the 2nd sentence above . Should it read "Part of rejecting God's will is to reject God's unconditional forgiveness".
I'm having a hard time with this one , if his forgiveness is unconditional how can it be if you are punished for rejecting it ?. Do you actually mean, God's love changes from unconditional to conditional when we die because we have rejected his unconditional forgiveness ?. Or do you believe "look i unconditionally forgive you, but if you reject my unconditional forgiveness i'm going to beat you" ?.
More to the point whenever anyone has forgiven me in the past i have never rejected it, how can you do this ?, have you ever rejected forgiveness that someone as extended to you ?
pcamps,
No I didn't leave it out intentionally. I do agree, it's hard to believe that people reject God's unconditional forgiveness, but they do. As Jesus said:
Chorazin, Bethsaida and Capernaum are an example of #3
Matthew 11:23-25
Luke 10:13-15
“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you.
The rejection by the people in Chorazin, Bethsaida and Capernaum was so great that Jesus said Tyre and Sidon (if presented with the same opportunity) would have repented. And given the opportunities that Capernaum had they been given to the people of Sodom, Sodom would still be in exsistance in Jesus' day.
"if his forgiveness is unconditional how can it be if you are punished for rejecting it" ....... several ways:
The time for repentanace is limited (time of grace) while alive
pcamps,
No I didn't leave it out intentionally. I do agree, it's hard to believe that people reject God's unconditional forgiveness, but they do. As Jesus said:
Chorazin, Bethsaida and Capernaum are an example of #3
Matthew 11:23-25
Luke 10:13-15
“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you.
The rejection by the people in Chorazin, Bethsaida and Capernaum was so great that Jesus said Tyre and Sidon (if presented with the same opportunity) would have repented. And given the opportunities that Capernaum had they been given to the people of Sodom, Sodom would still be in exsistance in Jesus' day.
"if his forgiveness is unconditional how can it be if you are punished for rejecting it" ....... several ways:
The time for repentanace is limited (time of grace) while alive
God is just
Maybe Jesus forgot that no one could come to him unless the Father draws him, and just threw this one out, or maybe he hadn't forgotten and knew that there would be an hardening on their part until the fullness of the Gentiles come in(Sounds like a plan to me).
Twin so you believe the unconditional love of God is limited to this life time based on whether we reject it or not ?, i'm sorry mate i'm not buying that, unconditional anything is not based on anything.Everything you are saying suggests you believe in conditional love.
1. there are the believers
2. there are unbelievers that knew not God's will
3. there are unbelievers that knew God's will but rejected it
Who has the worse punishment ... #3
Matthew 10:15
Truly I tell you, it will be morebearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.
Matthew 11:22
But I tell you, it will be morebearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.
Sodom and Gomorrah ...Tyre and Sidon are an example of #2
Chorazin, Bethsaida and Capernaum are an example of #3
Matthew 11:23-25
Luke 10:13-15
“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you
What group would these be in ( you didn't seem to explain them):
Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Jesus says they the servants of the Lord and knew the Lord (so obviously they are believers) But yet they didn't do according to His will.
Maybe Jesus forgot that no one could come to him unless the Father draws him, and just threw this one out, or maybe he hadn't forgotten and knew that there would be an hardening on their part until the fullness of the Gentiles come in(Sounds like a plan to me).
Twin so you believe the unconditional love of God is limited to this life time based on whether we reject it or not ?, i'm sorry mate i'm not buying that, unconditional anything is not based on anything.Everything you are saying suggests you believe in conditional love.
Then you're rejecting John 12:48 ..for that is what he taught
John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.
Then you're rejecting Luke 10:16..for that is what he taught
Luke 10:16
“Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
Then you're rejecting John 3:36 ..for that is what he taught
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoeverrejectsthe Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
1 Thessalonians 4:8
Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit.
What group would these be in ( you didn't seem to explain them):
Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Jesus says they the servants of the Lord and knew the Lord (so obviously they are believers) But yet they didn't do according to His will.
So what about them?
I thought I did. ... Luke 12:47 is any unbelieving servant that has been exposed to the truth and rejects. An example of that would be Chorazin, Bethsaida and Capernaum.
Then you're rejecting John 12:48 ..for that is what he taught
John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.
Then you're rejecting Luke 10:16..for that is what he taught
Luke 10:16
“Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
Then you're rejecting John 3:36 ..for that is what he taught
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoeverrejectsthe Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
1 Thessalonians 4:8
Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit.
As much as you cannot see it Twin their rejection is within the will and plan of God and that is why i bolded the until in the Romans scripture i posted above, because God purposed it to be so until the fullness of the Gentiles come in.
Do you really believe God is just watching to see how it all pans out ? , Or do you believe their rejection which brought reconciliation to the world(Romans 11:11,12) was designed and brought about by God himself ?. Before you answer this , know this i am not disputing this through ET an UR perspective, though i obviously you know where i stand on that issue.
Now if i am wrong about this and the scriptures you have quoted are actually saying what you think they are saying , then your belief in unconditional love has no foundation whatsoever, it's dependent on something, which means it's conditional.
Now if God has bound over all men over to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all Roms 11:32, this is unconditional, regardless of whether you believe in ET or UR.
You cannot have it both ways Twin , He's either unconditional in his mercy or he's not, and if he's unconditional you are reading those verses you quoted through a veiled mind.
I thought I did. ... Luke 12:47 is any unbelieving servant that has been exposed to the truth and rejects. An example of that would be Chorazin, Bethsaida and Capernaum.
But your using the word unbelieving. Whereas the verse is using the fact that the person is a SERVANT of the Lord. So are you now of the belief that one can still serve the Lord and be an unbeliever?
But your using the word unbelieving. Whereas the verse is using the fact that the person is a SERVANT of the Lord. So are you now of the belief that one can still serve the Lord and be an unbeliever?
To answer your question .... no and that is the point of Jesus' words. People will be under the impression that they can reject him, remain a unbeliever and still be considered a SERVANT of the Lord when the master (Jesus) terminates the time of grace.
** FYI verse 46 speaks to "day and hour" for that mislead unbelieving servant. The significance is that "day and hour" only effect people while living on earth. Point is ... time of grace ends for a person when "day and hour" ends (either at the death of the person or in this case, end of the world ... Matthew 25:31-46).
Luke 12:45-46
45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk.
46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
I thought I did. ... Luke 12:47 is any unbelieving servant that has been exposed to the truth and rejects. An example of that would be Chorazin, Bethsaida and Capernaum.
I never heard this phrase of an "unbelieving servant". Can you show me from scripture where this is communicated? What you even explaining seems to be contrary to that.
To answer your question .... no and that is the point of Jesus' words. People will be under the impression that they can reject him, remain a unbeliever and still be considered a SERVANT of the Lord when the master (Jesus) terminates the time of grace.
** FYI verse 46 speaks to "day and hour" for that mislead unbelieving servant. The significance is that "day and hour" only effect people while living on earth. Point is ... time of grace ends for a person when "day and hour" ends (either at the death of the person or in this case, end of the world ... Matthew 25:31-46).
Luke 12:45-46
Ok, now I can see that you have misunderstand God's Word. Because you say an unbeliever whereas Jesus doesn't use the words unbeliever but instead uses the words "servant" in the context of being a servant of the Lord.
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