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Lie #1 [Some Universalists] Everyone is already saved at the cross. No need to believe in Christ. If you have to believe in Christ in order to be saved, you're taking credit for your salvation.
Lie #2 [Other Universalists]. Everyone will believe and be saved. Either now or after death.
Logical conclusion of either lie.
Lie #1 Since you're already saved without having to believe in Christ, you can commit murder.
Lie #2 Since you are going to believe in Christ after you die and therefore be saved, you can commit murder. Because you will believe in Christ and be saved.
Universalists seem not to be able to comprehend the logical conclusion of their false beliefs.
The truth.Acts 16:31 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...' David was saved, committed murder and was still saved afterwards. But he incurred heavy discipline in time for his sin.
As I further said, the truth of the matter is that if one has been saved through faith in Christ, then he will not lose his salvation if he does commit murder or any other sin. King David is a case in point. But he incurred heavy divine discipline in time as a result of that act.
The point remains that human motivation encompasses far more than fear and there are myriad motives for sin . . . something the critics of UR seem to ignore. The truth of the matter is you are oddly correct . . . everyone who is saved by Christ (which is everyone, btw) . . . cannot lose their eternal life . . . but there will be divine discipline (= corrective consequences commensurate with the acts) for failure to build on Jesus' foundation of "love God and each other."
Last edited by MysticPhD; 03-23-2011 at 08:11 PM..
ILNC, do you believe in once-saved-always-saved? If so, don't you realize how silly and ironic it is for believers in that to mock URs in this way? Someone can, as Mike says, make a volitional decision to believe in Jesus and his sins are paid for and he will never lose his salvation. Then he can make a volitional decision to murder someone and he'll still go to heaven. But the victim might be a young person who has reached the age of accountability, lived a near-sinless life, loved others, maybe even prayed and read the Bible, but never got around to making the decision, so he will be in deep voodoo forever.
Nevermind the fact that, depending on your denomination, even a person who made that decision but wasn't confessed up, or wasn't baptized, or thought they were required to feel sorry for their sins, still wouldn't be saved! Ugh! Furthermore, most of us weren't even taught to fear any kind of "reaping what we sow" in the afterlife, because as long as we said that sinner's prayer we'll live happily ever after. So the murderer gets to skip off into eternity, while his victim burns forever.
ILNC, do you believe in once-saved-always-saved? If so, don't you realize how silly and ironic it is for believers in that to mock URs in this way? Someone can, as Mike says, make a volitional decision to believe in Jesus and his sins are paid for and he will never lose his salvation. Then he can make a volitional decision to murder someone and he'll still go to heaven. But the victim might be a young person who has reached the age of accountability, lived a near-sinless life, loved others, maybe even prayed and read the Bible, but never got around to making the decision, so he will be in deep voodoo forever.
Nevermind the fact that, depending on your denomination, even a person who made that decision but wasn't confessed up, or wasn't baptized, or thought they were required to feel sorry for their sins, still wouldn't be saved! Ugh! Furthermore, most of us weren't even taught to fear any kind of "reaping what we sow" in the afterlife, because as long as we said that sinner's prayer we'll live happily ever after. So the murderer gets to skip off into eternity, while his victim burns forever.
Yes I believe once saved always saved, that is what the Bible teaches. And this had nothing to do with UR, UR teaches ALL will be saved no matter what and that just ain't true. Salvation is not dependent on baptism or being fessed up, it is about asking Jesus to forgive you of your sins.
Yes I believe once saved always saved, that is what the Bible teaches. And this had nothing to do with UR, UR teaches ALL will be saved no matter what and that just ain't true. Salvation is not dependent on baptism or being fessed up, it is about asking Jesus to forgive you of your sins.
I said that is the logical conclusion of universalism either from the perspective of those universalists who believe everyone is already saved without having to believe in Christ, or from the perspective of those who think that all men will believe, if not now, then after death. That doesn't mean that people will want to go commit murder. But there are believers who do commit murder, and they do not lose their salvation.
As I said in the post I just submitted prior to this one, the believer CAN commit murder and not lose his salvation. That does not mean that he will want to commit murder. It means that if a believer Doe's commit murder, it was already paid for by Christ on the cross. Eternal security is not a license to sin.
But my point in my first post on this thread, now that I remember it, is that universalists do believe that you can commit murder and still be saved.
And that's how I should have phrased it. 'The logical conclusion of universalism is that universalists do believe that those who commit murder as believers are still saved because they believe that ultimately Everyone will be saved.'
And now I am confused as to what exactly then is your point? Because you believe exactly the same thing! Namely that a murderer can be saved.
Hypocrisy much? Unless I am misunderstanding you, it seems you are effectively saying: "UR is wrong because it means a murderer can be saved. By the way I believe a murderer can be saved."
Yes I believe once saved always saved, that is what the Bible teaches. And this had nothing to do with UR, UR teaches ALL will be saved no matter what and that just ain't true. Salvation is not dependent on baptism or being fessed up, it is about asking Jesus to forgive you of your sins.
Yes it does have something to do with UR. Mike said (and you gave him 3 ) that UR people believe someone can murder and still go to heaven, but SO DO YOU! We believe they will be tried by (symbolic) fire and will be refined. The bad will be burnt away like wood, hay, and stubble, and the good will remain like gold and precious jewels. But most people who believe in OSAS believe they'll stand before God and He'll say that since they believed in Jesus it's ok - don't worry about it because He sees them as righteous. Isn't that convenient?
I believed in OSAS before UR because I believed we are saved by grace. I still believe that, but now I TRULY believe that! It is by God's grace that He saved us - it is the gift of God - not of ourselves - lest anyone should boast. Salvation is a free gift from God and we can't earn it by believing the right things, and we are not told in the Bible we have to accept it. Life in itself is a gift, and we had no choice in the matter to accept it or not.
Your statement, "Salvation is not dependent on baptism or being fessed up, it is about asking Jesus to forgive you of your sins," is one belief among many, many others in mainstream Christian churches.
Last edited by Bright Hope for Tomorrow; 03-23-2011 at 09:01 PM..
Reason: added "symbolic"
Yes it does have something to do with UR. Mike said (and you gave him 3 ) that UR people believe someone can murder and still go to heaven, but SO DO YOU! We believe they will be tried by fire and will be refined. The bad will be burnt away like wood, hay, and stubble, and the good will remain like gold and precious jewels. But most people who believe in OSAS believe they'll stand before God and He'll say that since they believed in Jesus it's ok - don't worry about it because He sees them as righteous. Isn't that convenient?
I believed in OSAS before UR because I believed we are saved by grace. I still believe that, but now I TRULY believe that! It is by God's grace that He saved us - it is the gift of God - not of ourselves - lest anyone should boast. Salvation is a free gift from God and we can't earn it by believing the right things, and we are not told in the Bible we have to accept it. Life in itself is a gift, and we had no choice in the matter to accept it or not.
Your statement, "Salvation is not dependent on baptism or being fessed up, it is about asking Jesus to forgive you of your sins," is one belief among many, many others in mainstream Christian churches.
NO, the difference is UR people believe some can murder and go to Heaven without even asking Jesus to forgive them of their sins, and that is NOT Biblical. And yes when I stand before God He will say not guilty because my sins are under the blood of Jesus.
NO, the difference is UR people believe some can murder and go to Heaven without even asking Jesus to forgive them of their sins, and that is NOT Biblical.
NO, that is not what "UR people" believe (at least not this UR person).
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