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I understand what you are saying. You believe Romans 6:3-5 is referring to Holy Spirit baptism. I disagree. Here's why.
The word "baptism" in the Bible always means baptism with water unless otherwise plainly indicated. There is baptism with the Holy Spirit, but whenever it is mentioned, it is plainly called that. Notice you never see the term "water baptism?" That's because "baptism" was clearly understood to mean immersion in water.
John the Baptist, and the disciples of Jesus baptized thousands of people long before the apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. The term "baptism" had a clearly recognized meaning to the people of that day. Literal baptism is with water, unless it is used symbolically about the Holy Spirit, the sufferings of Jesus, or the burial of Israel under the cloud, surrounded by the Red Sea. The scriptures will always let us know when they are not referring to literal water baptism.
Baptism in the Bible always refers to water baptism unless the passage plainly shows that the Lord is speaking of something else.
To say that baptism in Romans 6 is Holy Spirit baptism ignores the historical church not to mention the Jewish customs of baptism always being in water!
There are ancient baptistries all over Jerusalem! Baptism in water was not a new concept to the Jews during Jesus time. The purpose of baptism changed under the New Covenant. For the first time, ALL pentinent believers could receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus commanded his disciples to baptize all nations. If they were to do it it must be in water because the Bible says that Jesus baptizes with the Spirit. Therefore..... the water and Spirit message in John 3:5 which is two elements of one new birth.
References to baptism in water in the patristic literature/ early church is plentiful! It is extremely clear that for the first few centuries everyone was in agreement that baptism was for the forgiveness of sins and was the only way to be saved.
I realize that early church history is not inspired work, but you certainly cannot ignore it, anymore that you can ignore our own American history.
Take a look at what the church fathers had to say.
Hermas c. 140-150 AD:
... when we wentdown into the water and received remission of our former sins... (Shepherd IV.iii.1) Note: Remission is simply another word for forgiveness.
Justin Martyr c. 150-165 AD
As many as believe that the things are true which are taught by us and decide to live accordingly are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting for the remission of their past sins and we pray and fast with them.Then they are brought by us where there is water and are born again (Apology 1.61) .
Then in discussing John 3:5 (a passage always associated with baptism in the early Christian literature) Justin continues:
In order that we... may obtain the remission of sins... there is pronounced in water over whom who has chosen to be born againand has repented of his sins the name of God the Father and the Lord of the universe (1.61).
In his discussion of the Eucharist (Lord's Supper) he says that no one is allowed to partake of the communion except the man who "has been washed with the washing that is for remission of sins and unto a second birth and is so living as Christ has enjoined" (1.66).
i c.130-200 AD: "We have received baptism for the remission of sins... And this baptism is the seal of eternal life and new birth unto God" (Dem. 3.41f. Haer. 5.11.2).
The Creed of the Council of Nicaea 325 AD
This fourth century creed is well known. It is ironic that although it is cherished by churchgoers the world over the import of its words is frequently overlooked: ... I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins...
"Baptism was always a burial. The command to baptize was always a command to immerse." Schaff-Herzog Religious Encyclopedia, Volume 1, Page 451
"Immersion was the oldest method employed. 'Buried in him by baptism.'" Catholic Biblical Encyclopedia, Page 61, Paragraph 1
"It is evident that the action performed in baptizing was immersion." Encyclopedia Dictionary of the Bible, Page 202
"The early church practiced immersion or submerging under the water." World Book of Encyclopedia, Volume 2, Page 70
"Martin Luther preferred immersion as more true to original practice." Encyclopedia of the Lutheran Church, Volume 1, Page 188
Naturally these affirmations do not stand on a par with the authority of scripture but they do shed light on the early Christians understanding of baptism.
The word "baptize" comes from the Greek word "baptizo," which means "to plunge, dip, or immerse." The words "planted together" and 'buried" are strong indications of immersion in water.
Every account of baptism in the Bible was by immersion:
"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water . . ." (Matthew 3:16).
"And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there . . . " (John 3:23).
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him" (Acts 8:38).
Notice that baptism is referred to in the Bible as a burial (planted with Him) : Romans 6:3-4; Colossians 2:12.
We are immersed in the water and the Spirit descends on us or is poured out on us and into us.
Katie
If you believe at the moment someone becomes baptized and the Holy Spirit descends on us, then how can that person lose his salvation once he or she has the Holy Spirit?
If you believe at the moment someone becomes baptized and the Holy Spirit descends on us, then how can that person lose his salvation once he or she has the Holy Spirit?
Hi Antredd,
This is what you wrote me in Post #52.
ANTREDD - "I think I see what you are doing now. Look at it from this point of view of what it means to be baptized into Jesus. “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.” Romans 6:3-5.
"In these three verses Apostle Paul deals most thoroughly with the subject of baptism as it applies to us. Let it be noticed, however, that the apostle makes it clear we are baptized into Jesus’ death with not one word of reference to water baptism. Water baptism is merely a symbol, or picture, of the real baptism."
I answered you in Post 54.
Now in your most current post, you completely changed the subject to "How a person loses his salvation once he has the Holy Spirit." I'm wondering if you accidentally posted this question to me when it was intended for someone else? I don't mind answering any questions anyone asks, but would it be possible for us to finish one topic before starting another? I would really like you to respond to my Post 54. I thought we were having an excellent discussion, and I would be interested in knowing what you think.
MysticPhD;18956933]
If as katie believes Jesus's real baptism was the water one given by John (and the one we need to emulate) . . . then WHY did Jesus repeatedly refer to the baptism He had to be baptised with AFTER having been baptized by John?
Luke 12:50 (New King James Version) 50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished!
Jesus' baptism by John was the real baptism, the one where His Father in heaven said, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased." Jesus said he was baptized to fulfill all righteousness.
Jesus also had to undergo a baptism of suffering. This does not eliminate His baptism by John.
You said Jesus repeatedly referred to his baptism of suffering. Could you show me those scriptures? You've quoted Luke 12:50 only.
Quote:
Baptism is "repeated immersion" . . . not a one time ritual magic as so many would believe because it "tickles their ears." This is the repeated immersion of our soul into the internal "water of life" surrounding our brain by the exercise of self-control over the negative drives generated by our animal nature. It is this repeated immersion that produces our emotional maturity and strengthens our embryo Spirit to maturity and eventual rebirth as Spirit . . . like Christ ("we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.").
This is pure garbage! It is not in the least bit Biblical.
This is pure garbage! It is not in the least bit Biblical.
Katie
It is biblical . . . but not superstitious or magical as you believe. What is the internal "water of life" that proceeds from God to each of us who "overcome?"
It is biblical . . . but not superstitious or magical as you believe. What is the internal "water of life" that proceeds from God to each of us who "overcome?"
Everything I have written on this forum is from the scriptures. I don't view that as "magic." Those are your words.
What is garbage and not in the least Biblical is your "water on the brain" comment.
Could you please tell me what this passage means line by line. Can you tell me exactly what it says?
Katie
18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21Baptism, which corresponds to this,( now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.
I did address this. I'm not sure which thread it was or what post, but I remember writing about it. I told you that various washings were done away with when Jesus died on the cross.
On the day of Pentecost, the people were told to repent and be baptized. And yes, it was in water. It was the first time christian baptism was administered, and for the first time, ALL pentinent believers received the gift of the Holy Spirit.
I also addressed the water thing in another post. It may be in thread "simply believe." I'm not sure, so check it out. It was a long post, and I spent a lot of time on it. I've been waiting for you response.
Katie
Does this include John's baptism? John's baptism was an ordinance of the law.
Can you show me chapter and verse when the blood of Christ is applied for our sins ?
When was the church established ?
Upon what conditions were required to become a member ?
My last question :
What dose the water mean in 1Peter 3:21 ?
1Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also-not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
I am not Kids in America......but I do have your answers for you DXCC...
Quote:
Originally Posted by DXCC
Kids in America
Can you show me chapter and verse when the blood of Christ is applied for our sins ?
God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--Romans 3:25.
Leviticus 16:10 But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD to be used for making atonement by sending it into the desert as a scapegoat.
Psalm 98:2 The LORD has made his salvation known and revealed his righteousness to the nations.
Acts 14:16 In the past, he let all nations go their own way.
Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
Romans 2:4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
Romans 3:26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
Romans 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!
Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
1 Corinthians 5:7 Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast--as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
Hebrews 9:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
1 Peter 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 4:10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood
Quote:
Originally Posted by DXCC
When was the church established ?
Acts 16:1-5 1Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek: 2 Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium. 3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek. 4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.
Acts 2:47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
Acts 9:31 Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace. It was strengthened; and encouraged by the Holy Spirit, it grew in numbers, living in the fear of the Lord.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DXCC
Upon what requirement was needed to become a member ?
The requirement needed to be a member of the Church...the Bride of Christ, is to be filled with the Holy Ghost...Indwelling Holy Spirit of Christ...of which in whom no sin can will found on That Day of The LORD...he will be found without spot or blemish...blameless...He will cloth her with a pure white garment made with fine linen.
He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us [His beloved, born of God, children] his holy Spirit. 1 Thessolonians 4:8.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DXCC
My last question :
What dose the water mean in 1Peter 3:21 ?
1Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also-not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
DXCC
Water baptism does not make one spiritually clean ("...not putting away of the filth of the flesh"...), for many who are emersed in water go and continue to sin just as they did before their water emersion. It is meerly an act to show man the intentions.
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Acts 16:33 At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized.
1 Timothy 1:5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
Hebrews 9:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
Hebrews 10:22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.
Hebrews 13:18 Pray for us. We are sure that we have a clear conscience and desire to live honorably in every way.
1 Peter 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1 Peter 3:16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
Kids, You never responded to this post. I copied it from the "simply believe" thread. I included your question in the post. Here it is. Could you please respond so we can continure our discussion? Thanks.
Originally Posted by kids in america_ @katimygirl
“Baptism” means “to dip” or “to immerse”. The word, in itself, does not indicate the element that is used in the process.
************************************************** ***
Hi Kids, Sorry it's taken me so long to answer your post. The good weather has me outdoors a lot now, and less on the computer. I will try to address post 137 and 138 together.
First, you asked me to elaborate on 1 Corinthians 1:10-17. Here's the passage.
10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas ”; still another, “I follow Christ.”13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name.16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
1. Paul is concerned about divisions at the church in Corinth.
2. Christians are quarreling.
3. Some are saying they follow Paul, some Apollos, some Cephas (Peter), some Christ.
4. Paul is glad he baptized none of them except Crispus, Gaius, Stephan.
5. Paul is glad he baptized no one else so that they can say they were baptized in his name
6. Christ did not send Paul to baptize. He sent him to preach the gospel
a. Paul is not saying baptism is not necessary for salvation.
b. Paul is not saying he will never baptize anyone ever again.
c. Paul is not saying baptism is not important.
d. Paul is not saying baptism will not be practiced anymore.
e. Paul in no way is minimizing the act of baptism.
The main idea here is that Paul does not want to see divisions in this church over who baptized who.
Paul wants no one to say they were baptized in his name.
Paul was sent to preach the gospel, not to baptize. Any christian could administer baptism.
It would be just like my teaching job. Is it more important for me to spend time with the kids teaching them math, or in the work room photocopying worksheets? Let the aids do the copying, and let me do the teaching. Both jobs are necessary, but one person is better qualified to teach and one is better qualified to do the photocopying. That's how I see this passage.
If you want to read more into what this passage is saying, that is your choice. (I'm sure you will do exactly that).
Keep in mind that Paul writes in depth about baptism in many of his other writings. Romans 6, Galatians 3, Colossians 2.
Every single scripture that mentions baptism is by water unless the context says otherwise (death, fire, Moses, Spirit)
Baptism without water is grasping for straws in my opinion.
You basically ignore the historical church (see scriptures below) not to mention the Jewish customs of baptism always being in water!
There are ancient baptistries all over Jerusalem! Baptism in water was not a new concept to the Jews during Jesus time. The purpose of baptism changed under the New Covenant. From the day of Pentecost forward, all pentinent believers could now receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus commands his disciples to baptize all nations. If they do it it must be in water because the Bible says that Jesus baptizes with the Spirit. Therefore the water and Spirit message in John 3:5 are two elements of one new birth.
References to baptism in water in the patristic literature/ early church is plentiful! It is extremely clear that for the first few centuries everyone was in agreement that baptism was for the forgiveness of sins and was the only way to be saved.
Hermas c. 140-150 AD:
... when we went down into the water and received remission of our former sins... (Shepherd IV.iii.1) Note: Remission is simply another word for forgiveness.
Justin Martyr c. 150-165 AD
As many as believe that the things are true which are taught by us and decide to live accordingly are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting for the remission of their past sins and we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are born again (Apology 1.61) .
Then in discussing John 3:5 (a passage always associated with baptism in the early Christian literature) Justin continues:
In order that we... may obtain the remission of sins... there is pronounced in water over whom who has chosen to be born again and has repented of his sins the name of God the Father and the Lord of the universe (1.61).
In his discussion of the Eucharist (Lord's Supper) he says that no one is allowed to partake of the communion except the man who "has been washed with the washing that is for remission of sins and unto a second birth and is so living as Christ has enjoined" (1.66).
i c.130-200 AD: "We have received baptism for the remission of sins... And this baptism is the seal of eternal life and new birth unto God" (Dem. 3.41f. Haer. 5.11.2).
The Creed of the Council of Nicaea 325 AD
This fourth century creed is well known. It is ironic that although it is cherished by churchgoers the world over the import of its words is frequently overlooked: ... I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins...
Naturally these affirmations do not stand on a par with the authority of scripture but they do shed light on the early Christians understanding of baptism.
Besides baptism means immersion! We are immersed in the water and the Spirit descends on us or is poured out on us and into us when we are baptized in water.
John 3 23 Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were coming and being baptized.
Matthew 3 16As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water.
Acts 8 36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?”[37] [c] 38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.
1 Peter 3 20because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1. Eight persons were brought safely through water.
2. Baptism corresponds to this.
3. Baptism now saves you.
Are you suggesting that 1 Peter 3 is not saying baptism saves us? Are you saying it is not referring to water baptism? Tell me how you see this passage.
Katie
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...but I do have your answers for you DXCC...
