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Foreknowledge means God knew in advance which of us would choose Him. God is not bound by time or space.
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Originally Posted by pcamps
But He is bound by man's free will ? . Really ?
Is the free will of man the only thing God cannot conqueror ? .
He is the great persuader who can and is persuading all men to believe because he's not bound by time and space.
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Originally Posted by Theophane
He chooses to leave it unconquered. Why give man a sapient awareness of himself only to nullify it with Your unrefusable will?
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Originally Posted by Theophane
All men have not been persuaded. Why is that?
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Originally Posted by Phazelwood
Because everyones journey is unique.
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Originally Posted by Theophane
Granted, but that doesn't explain why every man has not been persuaded if His will to be known & loved is unrefusable.
Because He is NOT bound by time and space . . . YOU have placed the bounds of time on Him with your question that can only be answered . . . by YET!
All of these conclusions you good folks are coming to are based on the fact you believe in Sola Scriptura. This is where you go wrong. The bible doesn't explain itself and there is only one entity that has the Jesus given authority to make the calls on issues of contention. Go to your nearest parish priest at any Catholic Church and you will finally find some authority. Ask him the question of predestination or free will and see what he says. Only then will you begin to find the truth.
No man has all the Truth. Even a catholic priest. We can ask but we'll only get his interpretation, not absolute truth in which only God has.
God could have had every one look the same , do the same things, think the same, be like a robotics type existence, But In stead God made us different and gave us choices of Blessing and curses , Life or death, and said Chose Life so that your children may live.......... See God gave His Holy Angels free will and many chose death ..... originally God gave the spirits of demon and devils free will and all chose death.....The animals of the earth were given free will but were were not responsive in mind to the Lord as their Creation was limited........Controlling nature was rejected as evil,.... Were the Lord is Lord of Life , and Goodness and Will Judge our acceptance to the choices we make , good or bad ...... So through the Cross of Calvary Jesus gave his life so man could live outside the choices that he lived from the passed and live to the Lord and still be one with the Lord of Live ........ See this gift of God for life was never given to the Angels of the Lord , or the fallen angels and spirits of the earth
He chooses to leave it unconquered. Why give man a sapient awareness of himself only to nullify it with Your unrefusable will?
Then God as not truely conquered everything.Man does not have a clue of who he really is until God opens is eyes, and when is eyes are opened, he needs no convincing of who he IS and who God IS.
God chooses to open our eyes and was anointed and sent to do so.
“The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,
to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.â€
He did not fail,it's only a veiled mind that believes otherwise.
Love. What is the essential and most intrinsic nature of love? Is it not self sacrificial giving? This is why Calvary is such a glorious and perfect example of love. By this one act God proved to the universe that Lucifer’s rebellion in heaven was unfounded, unreasonable, and treacherous. Any act of rebellion is a claim of dissatisfaction with the ruling authority, and is by it’s nature a charge of injustice, tyranny, and unfairness against the laws and governing principles of the sovereign. But at Calvary, through His Son Jesus Christ, God proved Satan’s charges wrong. God is love. His entire kingdom is founded on love. All the principles and laws that govern the whole creation reflect the justice, the righteousness, and the love of God. Self sacrificing love.
Satan's way is the way of deceit and force. It is the opposite of love. And the world follows Satan’s example.
Math 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
These words of Jesus reveal the principles that govern this world. It has been so throughout human history, from Cain to this present day. Principles that are the catalyst for all manner of violence and evil resulting in human misery and suffering. Slavery in all it’s forms. Physical and spiritual. Jesus came to set us free. He came to show that there is another way. To demonstrate the principles that govern the kingdom of God. The principles of love. The principles of voluntary service, not enforced servitude.
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
If God is love, then He is a gentleman. He has manners. He is polite. He is not intrusive, He does not force us or arbitrarily impose His will upon us in order to establish a loving relationship.
"Behold, I stand at the door and knock... (He doesn’t force the lock, open the door Himself, beat it down, or force it open in any way)
"If any man hears My voice...(not demanding or authoritative, but lovingly endearing)
"and opens the door(we open the door, not God. We choose to open the door or leave it shut)
I will come into him and sup with him, and he with Me."Rev 3:20
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
These are invitations. Not demands. Not orders. They are a proposal of marriage. The gospel is a proposal of marriage. Our relationship with God is like a marriage.
Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
2 Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Isaiah 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
The gospel is an offer of love. An offer of atonement— at-one-ment. Through Calvary God has demonstrated His great love for us. He sends His Holy Spirit to woo us, to convince us of His honourable intentions, in order to convince us to accept His offer of an eternal relationship founded on love. And all through the Scriptures He is directing our attention to Calvary, to the cross of Christ. It is the life and death of Jesus that shows God in the greatest possible light.
When I was dating my wife, I also made sure she saw me in the best possible light, that she would accept my proposal of marriage. I could not force her, although I had certainly chosen her. But she had to choose me in return, and love demanded that she have that freedom of choice, otherwise love is no longer love, but rape. I wanted a wife, not a slave.
God is no different. He seeks a voluntary response of love from His chosen people. He does not force love. That is not in His character. That is not in the nature of love. Force is found only in the character of Satan. Love does not enslave. Love attracts. Love pleads. Love implores. Love entreats. To claim that we are arbitrarily converted without any approval, agreement, or cooperation on our part is a gross distortion of the character of God.
Love not only requires freedom of response, but also freedom to leave. If my wife for any reason chooses to leave, my love for her must allow her that freedom. I would be devastated, yes, heartbroken, yes, and I would plead for her not to go, but I could never ever force her to stay against her will. Neither will God.
For God to impose His will upon us is essentially selfish. It is diametrically opposed to everything that God Himself expressed through Jesus. He gave everything that He had to offer by giving His Son. That is the ultimate in self-sacrificial giving. It would be against His nature after such an act to turn around completely and force His own desires upon unwilling recipients.
If God ever had it in His mind to do as you and many others suggest, then He could have saved the world from immeasurable heartache and suffering by imposing His will upon Adam and Eve and all their offspring and made the entire human race His 'willing' servants.
But the fact that He did not do such a thing is evidence that we indeed have it within ourselves the freedom to choose Him or reject Him.
All of these conclusions you good folks are coming to are based on the fact you believe in Sola Scriptura. This is where you go wrong. The bible doesn't explain itself and there is only one entity that has the Jesus given authority to make the calls on issues of contention. Go to your nearest parish priest at any Catholic Church and you will finally find some authority. Ask him the question of predestination or free will and see what he says. Only then will you begin to find the truth.
For 1500 years the papacy demonstrated vividly what she thought of free will. She demonstrated that she was free to inflict suffering, pain, and death on anyone who happened to disagree with her priests and trust solely in the scriptures. She demonstrated that she considered no-one else to be free when it came to worshipping God according to the dictates of ones own conscience.
To attempt to encourage people to trust in her today sadly is not an entirely fruitless exercise. Many are vacating protestantism and returning to "mother". They are fools. They not only ignore history, but actually believe the Vatican has somehow changed. But can the leopard change its spots? I think not.
The Bible does explain itself, and besides which Jesus has promised the earnest seeker of truth that the Holy Spirit will lead guide and teach all truth. And I know children today who understand the Bible better than any priests I grew up under.
I wanted to state my opinion on the Major difference between those who believe in ET and those who believe in UR. the first one is the translation of the word " Aion" some bibles translate it as eternal some translate it as age-during. Those who believe in ET say it is eternal and those who follow UR believe it means age-during, so either eternal torment or age-during chastisement. This debate will go on because it is a translation debate. I want to talk about the other, "free will."
First we need to define our terms. I think we all pretty much agree on what will is, it is our choice to choose what we want the most. The heart will always choose what it wants the most. Some time people will say that they made a choice they really did not want to make but that is not true. Oh they may have preferred that things were different so they had other choices to make but never doubt that they choose what their heart wanted the most deep down.
So the word we need to define now is the word "free" what does that mean. I have heard many people say that God gave man free will. Where in the bible does it say that? No one can show me a verse that says it, they say that it is implied. I disagree. One of the verses many people will point to is "
Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. "
That shows that we have a choice to make and that is true. Every choice we make is our choice, but is it a "free" choice?
If by free you mean it is ours to make then we have free will according to that definition of "free". But if you mean without influence on our choices then we do not have "free" will, because every choice we make is influence by many factors.
The best definition I have ever heard of God's Grace was "divine influence on the heart." many people think that God's grace is just forgiveness of sin and that is part of it but there is much more to his Grace. If you forgave a thief for stealing but did nothing else and he kept stealing and you kept forgiving him he learns nothing except that it is ok to keep stealing, in fact he believes he has a right to steal. But if you forgive him but chastise him so he has a change of heart and no longer chooses to steal then you have influenced his heart and he chooses to quit stealing. was that "free will" or not.
That is how God shapes our will to his will by influencing our heart till we are in tune with Gods heart. Then we choose to follow God way because our hearts are in tune.
God is always in control. Many people say that but they don't really believe it. They think God set up the world and then lets events unfold as they will and we are in control of the aspects of our life that relate to what we choose to do. Remember that the clay( that's us) never leaves the Potter's (that's God) hands. He is always shaping us, some time is major ways but most time in small hardly noticed ways.
The bible tells us that God knows when a bird fall, and how many hairs are on our head. Why are these things in the bible? Because it shows that God knows everything because He is in controls every detail, even the hairs on out head. He saw the end before the beginning. That is how He knows what will happen because He set it up to happen that way before he even created the world. His plan is working out exactly as He designed it to be.
I did not come to this realization over night or easily. I too thought I had free will because it felt like I did, and I wanted to have free will so that I would be in charge of my fate. It was an " idol of my heart", it was my choice to choose what I believed or what I did. My heart believed that but my mind knew God had control so how do the two thing reconcile themselves to each other? I read peoples opinions and prayed about it and one day God opened my eyes and I finally understood. Everything is my choice to make and it always was and always will be ,but God influences my heart so that my choices will change until I am in tune with God and then his will, will be my will. (I am still under construction.) He knows exactly how to do this, in fact He has already seen what He will do and how I will respond because he has seen the end( and all points in between) before the world was created.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
When I put myself on the throne of my heart (the temple of God) and say that I am in control I exalt myself above God and I become the man of sin, the son of perdition.
They are my choices but "Thank God" they are not free from God's divine influences on my heart.
good post. Regarding judgement...
"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!" Romans 11:33
Regarding choice..
I guess we have the free-will to choose whether or not to listen to God's chastisement. We can choose not to listen to the conviction and thus end up rebelling. We can choose not to evoke the spirit of God to rid us of our temptation. I do think we have a choice. I think Choice is a huge part of life and we will be judged accordingly. Someone said once if we could see our true self, it would be disturbing to see who we truly are. I have to agree. It will be one day I'm not really looking forward to.
Regarding the Son of Perdition standing in the temple of God proclaiming he is God, it very well could be us magnifying ourselves in our hearts. We could all be of the "Son of Perdition". This very well could be referring to our body as the temple as opposed to single person dictator standing in the "third temple". You have plenty out there apparently willing to stand in line sadly awaiting our "evolution" to god consciousness. Proclaiming it's our next step in "evolution". Come on guys.. gods really?... Our pride has blinded our reason.
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