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The New Birth has to do with our soul and not our physical bodies. It is our soul's condition that is the most important thing about who and what we are. As you know, there isn't much written in the Bible about a soul, what it is, where it came from and where it's going. The only person who attained the highest level of soul transformation that I'm aware of is Jesus. He became a Divine man on earth. His teachings are that we can also accomplish this if it is our desire to do so. I know many people who receive God's Divine Love and, no, none of us have yet risen to his level, but it is possible... while we are still living on this earth.
So how will we know, or anyone else know, if we ever become Divine? There will be a change in our personality traits and our love natures. We will love everyone unconditionally with a tender, gentle and caring love. We will not sin, as it will no longer be a part of us. We will be forgiving, tolerant and most of all, we will be extremely joyous and happy people. Our souls will be at peace. We will not be sad or miserable. We will not worry or have fear, but rather we will be lifted up by the Love of God and we will be blessed by Him with everything that we need.
So knowing that it is God's Holy Spirit that is instrumental in this and all we need to do is pray for God's Divine Love. Very simple.
Blessings.
Well in my understanding, a soul is a body, as in " The soul that sins, it shall die." But I understand that some view the soul, as the Spirit in man. I view the Spirit a bit differently, as I do being born again or being " Divine." I am of the view that the new birth, is simply that, a total transformation from flesh to a Spirit form. Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3: 3-8, unless one is born of the Spirit, they cannot even view the Kingdom of God, can't even see it with their eyes. He said you can't even enter Gods Kingdom, unless your Born again.
In vs. 6 he complettly seperates the human body from this Spiritual form saying, that which is born of flesh, well obviously its flesh; that which is born of Spirit, well obviously is now a total Spirit being. In vs. 8 Christ literally teachs that those born again are not visable to the human eye.
In my study of scripture, being born again is NOT what many are saying that it is. Because if people teach what it really is, their going to have to backtrack and stop claiming that they are. Something their pride won't allow them to do.
Well in my understanding, a soul is a body, as in " The soul that sins, it shall die." But I understand that some view the soul, as the Spirit in man. I view the Spirit a bit differently, as I do being born again or being " Divine." I am of the view that the new birth, is simply that, a total transformation from flesh to a Spirit form. Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3: 3-8, unless one is born of the Spirit, they cannot even view the Kingdom of God, can't even see it with their eyes. He said you can't even enter Gods Kingdom, unless your Born again.
In vs. 6 he complettly seperates the human body from this Spiritual form saying, that which is born of flesh, well obviously its flesh; that which is born of Spirit, well obviously is now a total Spirit being. In vs. 8 Christ literally teachs that those born again are not visable to the human eye.
In my study of scripture, being born again is NOT what many are saying that it is. Because if people teach what it really is, their going to have to backtrack and stop claiming that they are. Something their pride won't allow them to do.
Peace.
You and Mystic seem to have similar views, if I'm understanding both of you correctly. That one is not born again until physical death. But I believe Mystic sees that we are in "embryo" form now ... we've been conceived and our New Spirit/embryo is developing in the womb of our physical life.
ETA: oops, accidentally posted before I finished. I was going to say that I see this as fitting with the idea that Jesus said the Kingdom of God/heaven is within us. But that the Bible does seem to indicate that there will be a time (after our physical death/when we have been born again) when we will see this Kingdom clearly.
You and Mystic seem to have similar views, if I'm understanding both of you correctly. That one is not born again until physical death. But I believe Mystic sees that we are in "embryo" form now ... we've been conceived and our New Spirit/embryo is developing in the womb of our physical life.
Hmmm....maybe. Mystic has really opened my eyes and mind to other possibilities, although we don't always agree. Not sure I agree with this one either.....I was born again when I received Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. Trust me when I say that. I'm not perfect but I am a perfected version of what I used to be. I am, therefore God loves me.
Hmmm....maybe. Mystic has really opened my eyes and mind to other possibilities, although we don't always agree. Not sure I agree with this one either.....I was born again when I received Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. Trust me when I say that. I'm not perfect but I am a perfected version of what I used to be. I am, therefore God loves me.
Yah, I think that's what Mystic is saying, Ilene ... although I shouldn't try to speak for him, because I may very well have it wrong. But, as I understand him, he believes that we have been given the grace to develop into a more "perfected version" of ourselves in the here and now, but that isn't the same thing as being born again. I think it's just a matter of semantics, to some degree.
Yah, I think that's what Mystic is saying, Ilene ... although I shouldn't try to speak for him, because I may very well have it wrong. But, as I understand him, he believes that we have been given the grace to develop into a more "perfected version" of ourselves in the here and now, but that isn't the same thing as being born again. I think it's just a matter of semantics, to some degree.
I think I've seen Mystic say that, just don't know where and when. I don't like to argue with my good buddies so I probably didn't challenge him on it. But now I am. Yeah, semantics.
You and Mystic seem to have similar views, if I'm understanding both of you correctly. That one is not born again until physical death. But I believe Mystic sees that we are in "embryo" form now ... we've been conceived and our New Spirit/embryo is developing in the womb of our physical life.
ETA: oops, accidentally posted before I finished. I was going to say that I see this as fitting with the idea that Jesus said the Kingdom of God/heaven is within us. But that the Bible does seem to indicate that there will be a time (after our physical death/when we have been born again) when we will see this Kingdom clearly.
Well I don't know Mystic or his views, but in my view Jesus conversation with Nicodemus is very revealing. Really it went way over Nicodemus head, and I think much of christianitys head. Jesus basically was teaching a seperation of Flesh and Born of the Spirit, showing them to be two different things. The bible says that flesh and blood cannot enter Gods Kingdom, I am not sure why many believers think the Kingdom can enter them. That is not biblical, its contridiction.
In John 3:3, again Jesus teachs that unless one is Born again, they cannot, with their eyes, simply see Gods Kingdom. And listen, the Kingdom of God is an actual place, it has location, it has buildings and it is populated with Angels and differing Spirit beings. If a person was born again, they could literally see this now.
According to Christ.
In vs. 5, again Jesus further elaborates over Nicodemus head by saying if you are not born of water and Spirit, you cannot enter Gods Kingdom, and it certainly willnot enter you. What Jesus meant by " Born of Water", I am not sure.
In vs. 6, he teachs" That which is born of flesh, is human; That which is born of Spirit, is now a Spirit being. I see no " Embryo" period in this transformation. Now I believe the Spirit of God can now " Be With people", yes, I understand that. But I am not convinced about this Spirit of God being in people who are still flesh. I think only certain specially called out and annointed leaders in the bible , may have actually been given that distinction. And I am not even sure of that.
This is an ongoing study with me, far too much I just don't know, and I want to be clear on that. When the church of God was first called out on the earth in Acts, in chapt. 1:verse 8 Jesus said something of intrest to me. He said they shall receive power when the Holy Spirit " Is Upon them", he didnot say " In them." But in 2:4 it states that the Spirit was " In" them all. My question is, did it " Vist" them, or did it remain in them." In 1John 3:9 these born again people do not sin because the Spirit " Abides, or Remains in them." It does not leave.
The Spirit of God can be either, a Spirit of " Vistitation", or it remains. And I am of the view that it now only " Vists", it does not stay.
Well I don't know Mystic or his views, but in my view Jesus conversation with Nicodemus is very revealing. Really it went way over Nicodemus head, and I think much of christianitys head. Jesus basically was teaching a seperation of Flesh and Born of the Spirit, showing them to be two different things. The bible says that flesh and blood cannot enter Gods Kingdom, I am not sure why many believers think the Kingdom can enter them. That is not biblical, its contridiction.
In John 3:3, again Jesus teachs that unless one is Born again, they cannot, with their eyes, simply see Gods Kingdom. And listen, the Kingdom of God is an actual place, it has location, it has buildings and it is populated with Angels and differing Spirit beings. If a person was born again, they could literally see this now.
According to Christ.
In vs. 5, again Jesus further elaborates over Nicodemus head by saying if you are not born of water and Spirit, you cannot enter Gods Kingdom, and it certainly willnot enter you. What Jesus meant by " Born of Water", I am not sure.
In vs. 6, he teachs" That which is born of flesh, is human; That which is born of Spirit, is now a Spirit being. I see no " Embryo" period in this transformation. Now I believe the Spirit of God can now " Be With people", yes, I understand that. But I am not convinced about this Spirit of God being in people who are still flesh. I think only certain specially called out and annointed leaders in the bible , may have actually been given that distinction. And I am not even sure of that.
This is an ongoing study with me, far too much I just don't know, and I want to be clear on that. When the church of God was first called out on the earth in Acts, in chapt. 1:verse 8 Jesus said something of intrest to me. He said they shall receive power when the Holy Spirit " Is Upon them", he didnot say " In them." But in 2:4 it states that the Spirit was " In" them all. My question is, did it " Vist" them, or did it remain in them." In 1John 3:9 these born again people do not sin because the Spirit " Abides, or Remains in them." It does not leave.
The Spirit of God can be either, a Spirit of " Vistitation", or it remains. And I am of the view that it now only " Vists", it does not stay.
Peace.
Wow that is an interesting perspective and it's given me a lot to think about. I think you might be right, but I'll have to revisit scripture on this one. I love it when someone presents something new and different, it makes all this worthwhile.
Well I don't know Mystic or his views, but in my view Jesus conversation with Nicodemus is very revealing. Really it went way over Nicodemus head, and I think much of christianitys head. Jesus basically was teaching a seperation of Flesh and Born of the Spirit, showing them to be two different things. The bible says that flesh and blood cannot enter Gods Kingdom, I am not sure why many believers think the Kingdom can enter them. That is not biblical, its contridiction.
It is partly based on the passage where jesus speaks to the pharisees and says that the kingdom of god is within them ... but I understand that can also be translated as among rather than within.
However, I believe the understanding comes from other NT sources as well ... the idea (which you do not agree with, I realize) that the Spirit dwells in people, having the mind of Christ, among other things. I'm not prepared at the moment to give a comprehensive overview, but just saying that the idea does have support ... it's not just pulled out of thin air.
Quote:
In John 3:3, again Jesus teachs that unless one is Born again, they cannot, with their eyes, simply see Gods Kingdom. And listen, the Kingdom of God is an actual place, it has location, it has buildings and it is populated with Angels and differing Spirit beings. If a person was born again, they could literally see this now.
On the other hand, Jesus didn't describe the kingdom in that way, rather he said that it is righteousness, peace and joy IN the Holy Spirit.
Anyway, I was just giving you a heads up that you are not the only one here who sees being "born again" as not happening in this life ... thought you might find Mystic's views interesting. No biggie.
The Spirit of God can be either, a Spirit of " Vistitation", or it remains. And I am of the view that it now only " Vists", it does not stay.
Peace.
Oh, wanted to respond to this ... the NT says that one can either walk in the flesh or walk in the sprit. To me, this is not because the spirit is coming and going, but because we, essentially, have 2 natures: flesh/spirit or old man/new man, the old Adam/the mind of Christ. It's a matter of which nature we're going to "obey" in any given moment, I think.
Well I don't know Mystic or his views, but in my view Jesus conversation with Nicodemus is very revealing. Really it went way over Nicodemus head, and I think much of christianitys head. Jesus basically was teaching a seperation of Flesh and Born of the Spirit, showing them to be two different things. The bible says that flesh and blood cannot enter Gods Kingdom, I am not sure why many believers think the Kingdom can enter them. That is not biblical, its contridiction.
In John 3:3, again Jesus teachs that unless one is Born again, they cannot, with their eyes, simply see Gods Kingdom. And listen, the Kingdom of God is an actual place, it has location, it has buildings and it is populated with Angels and differing Spirit beings. If a person was born again, they could literally see this now.
According to Christ.
In vs. 5, again Jesus further elaborates over Nicodemus head by saying if you are not born of water and Spirit, you cannot enter Gods Kingdom, and it certainly willnot enter you. What Jesus meant by " Born of Water", I am not sure.
In vs. 6, he teachs" That which is born of flesh, is human; That which is born of Spirit, is now a Spirit being. I see no " Embryo" period in this transformation. Now I believe the Spirit of God can now " Be With people", yes, I understand that. But I am not convinced about this Spirit of God being in people who are still flesh. I think only certain specially called out and annointed leaders in the bible , may have actually been given that distinction. And I am not even sure of that.
This is an ongoing study with me, far too much I just don't know, and I want to be clear on that. When the church of God was first called out on the earth in Acts, in chapt. 1:verse 8 Jesus said something of intrest to me. He said they shall receive power when the Holy Spirit " Is Upon them", he didnot say " In them." But in 2:4 it states that the Spirit was " In" them all. My question is, did it " Vist" them, or did it remain in them." In 1John 3:9 these born again people do not sin because the Spirit " Abides, or Remains in them." It does not leave.
The Spirit of God can be either, a Spirit of " Vistitation", or it remains. And I am of the view that it now only " Vists", it does not stay.
Peace.
Kingdom of God is wherever God is, so if you have been born again and received the Holy Spirit, then you could say that a part of the kingdom is within you. Of course the spirit world and out flesh world are separate which is why we cannot see the spirit or heaven. Heaven is obviously a part of Kingdom of God. When we die and become spirits, we will be able to see everything, even Christ Himself.
I assume the embryo talk makes an attempt to describe us as helpless as embryos, who don't have a say about what is happening to them. They live in the womb, grow, and are born, whether they like it or not. It would mean that we are like logs in the river, where the water slowly takes us down stream and we don't have any power to change the course, or slow it down, or speed it up. Such view is in contradiction with the Bible because the Bible encourages people to do certain things in certain ways.
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I am, therefore God loves me.
Yeah, semantics.
