A quick reply to a skeptic. (Gospel, Messiah, preaching, believe)
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You just have to love it when someone quotes the Bible to try to prove the bible. It's like Cinderalla saying "my story is true." Is that sufficeint to prove that it really is true?
My friend Ralph is writing his bible too. He's telling everone that it's really "divinely inspired." Should we believe him? Why not, his bible stories are full of miracles just like the regular bible?
And prophecy to. Ralph wrote on 9/12 that he had prophesized 9/11 on 9/10.
To which I replied in post #18
If you will not accept the historically verifiable fulfilled prophecies of the Bible as proof of its divine origin... Isa 44:6 'Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel. And His Redeemer, the LORD of Hosts; 'I am the first and I am the last., And there is no God besides Me. 7] 'And who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it; Yes, let him recount it to Me in order, From the time that I established the ancient nation. And let them declare to them the things that are coming And the events that are going to take place. 8] Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.' '' ...and as a result, reject the only means of salvation that God has provided for you, through faith in Christ Jesus, then you remain under eternal condemnation and are headed for eternity in the lake of fire. Your choice.
In reply to that, the skeptic wrote this in Post #19
RESPONSE:
I always accept prophecies that were written only after the event they prophecize.
God didn't provide the Bibe. man did. God provided reason.
And then again in Post # 21
RESPONSE:
'They aren't; so I don't.
Example: Matthew 2:23 "There he made his home in a town called Nazareth, so that what had been spoken through the prophets might be fulfilled, ‘He will be called a Nazorean"
There's no such prophecy. Nazareth itself isn't even mentioned in the Old Testament.
Your Bible was authored by men, not God.
But if you believe everything it says, do you believe everything Cinderella says? Will you believe everything Ralph says?'
To answer the statement in post #19, there are by some counts some 300 prophecies in the Old Testament of the coming Messiah. Since the last book of the Old Testament was written some 400 years before Jesus Christ was born, those prophecies were quite obviously not written after the fact.
Just to take one more prophecy which is historically verifiable as not being written after the fact, is the prophecy of Tyre. Now, skeptics love to point to the modern day city of Tyre and claim that the prophecy failed. But the prophecy was made to the Phoenician Empire of Tyre. The modern day city of Tyre and its people have no connection with the city and people of the ancient Phoenician Empire. Ancient Tyre consisted of the mainland city located on the coast, and an island fortress about a half mile offshore and a little to the north of the mainland city. It is not my intention to go into detail about the prophecy here, as I want to keep this short, and there is an abundance of information about the prophecy on the internet for those who are interested.
To answer Post #21, do you think that this hasn't been addressed by scholars, theologians, and commentators many times? Do you think that Matthew wasn't aware that there was no specific prophecy by a prophet concerning Narzareth? Matthew knew exactly what he was talking about, and what he meant by his statement, even if today there are different opinions about what he meant.
There is no need for me to go into any detail about it, simply refer to what has already been said by commentators on the matter.
I found that there is nothing that can be said to convince a skeptic.
The skeptic taunts the audience, even to the point of saying ....
“You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!"
"He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! He’s the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him."
I know. That's one reason why I kept my reply brief. But if a skeptic can't be convinced, he can at least be refuted, for the benefit of others. And to be fair, there have been honest skeptics, however few, who have seen their error and who became believers as a result of honest investigation on their part.
The best way to convince a skeptic doesn't involve scholarly debates. Convince without convincing. Debate without debating. Bypass the intellect and go straight for the heart. Preaching the Gospel wordlessly is hands down the best way to preach. The cleverness of language betrays the simpler truth of one's inner self.
Mike 555 posted:
>>If you will not accept the historically verifiable fulfilled prophecies of the Bible as proof of its divine origin... <<
RESPONSE: If there were any, I might.
>>To answer the statement in post #19, there are by some counts some 300 prophecies in the Old Testament of the coming Messiah.
RESPONSE:
So? There may be three hundred very general statements that could be applied to anyone, but instead are interpreted as prophecies of the Messiah. "He will be a man of sorrows" So is my friend Ralph who is writing his own "inspired" bible. He's frequently sad, too. Does this make him the messiah?
I think more than more than enough posters have debunked your Tyre prophecy claim. Don't you get tired of repeating the same errors? Simply click the "search" to find previous answers. But the first question you have to answer is when was the prophecy written, and when was it fulfilled.
>>do you think that this hasn't been addressed by scholars, theologians, and commentators many times<<
RESPONSE: Sure. There are a lot of bible apologists who argue against the plain meaning to words or ignore the evidence to try to claim inerrancy in the bible.
>>Do you think that Matthew wasn't aware that there was no specific prophecy by a prophet concerning Narzareth?<<
RESPONSE:
No. It was only one of Matthew's many scriptural blunders. Here's another. Matthew 27
"Then was fulfilled what had been spoken through the prophet Jeremiah,* ‘And they took* the thirty pieces of silver, the price of the one on whom a price had been set,* on whom some of the people of Israel had set a price, 10and they gave* them for the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me.’" (NRSV)
Problem: There's no such prophecy in Jeremiah. Some claim that Matthew was using a book contain other prophetic writings and got mixed up. But this alternative fail too. The only mention of thirty pieces of silver in scripture, is that involves in a labor dispute in Zechariah.
>>There is no need for me to go into any detail about it, simply refer to what has already been said by commentators on the matter.
RESPONSE:
Why? Their blunders are frequently the same as yours or any other bible literalist.
>>There is not a single objection or argument that a skeptic can make which has not already been addressed by commentators.<<
RESPONSE: Of course. But "addressing" is a far different matter than answering adequately.
You just have to love it when someone quotes the Bible to try to prove the bible. It's like Cinderalla saying "my story is true." Is that sufficeint to prove that it really is true?
My friend Ralph is writing his bible too. He's telling everone that it's really "divinely inspired." Should we believe him? Why not, his bible stories are full of miracles just like the regular bible?
And prophecy to. Ralph wrote on 9/12 that he had prophesized 9/11 on 9/10.
To which I replied in post #18
If you will not accept the historically verifiable fulfilled prophecies of the Bible as proof of its divine origin... Isa 44:6 'Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel. And His Redeemer, the LORD of Hosts; 'I am the first and I am the last., And there is no God besides Me. 7] 'And who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it; Yes, let him recount it to Me in order, From the time that I established the ancient nation. And let them declare to them the things that are coming And the events that are going to take place. 8] Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.' '' ...and as a result, reject the only means of salvation that God has provided for you, through faith in Christ Jesus, then you remain under eternal condemnation and are headed for eternity in the lake of fire. Your choice.
In reply to that, the skeptic wrote this in Post #19
RESPONSE:
I always accept prophecies that were written only after the event they prophecize.
God didn't provide the Bibe. man did. God provided reason.
And then again in Post # 21
RESPONSE:
'They aren't; so I don't.
Example: Matthew 2:23 "There he made his home in a town called Nazareth, so that what had been spoken through the prophets might be fulfilled, ‘He will be called a Nazorean"
There's no such prophecy. Nazareth itself isn't even mentioned in the Old Testament.
Your Bible was authored by men, not God.
But if you believe everything it says, do you believe everything Cinderella says? Will you believe everything Ralph says?'
To answer the statement in post #19, there are by some counts some 300 prophecies in the Old Testament of the coming Messiah. Since the last book of the Old Testament was written some 400 years before Jesus Christ was born, those prophecies were quite obviously not written after the fact.
Just to take one more prophecy which is historically verifiable as not being written after the fact, is the prophecy of Tyre. Now, skeptics love to point to the modern day city of Tyre and claim that the prophecy failed. But the prophecy was made to the Phoenician Empire of Tyre. The modern day city of Tyre and its people have no connection with the city and people of the ancient Phoenician Empire. Ancient Tyre consisted of the mainland city located on the coast, and an island fortress about a half mile offshore and a little to the north of the mainland city. It is not my intention to go into detail about the prophecy here, as I want to keep this short, and there is an abundance of information about the prophecy on the internet for those who are interested.
To answer Post #21, do you think that this hasn't been addressed by scholars, theologians, and commentators many times? Do you think that Matthew wasn't aware that there was no specific prophecy by a prophet concerning Narzareth? Matthew knew exactly what he was talking about, and what he meant by his statement, even if today there are different opinions about what he meant.
There is no need for me to go into any detail about it, simply refer to what has already been said by commentators on the matter.
Mike 555 posted:
>>If you will not accept the historically verifiable fulfilled prophecies of the Bible as proof of its divine origin... <<
RESPONSE: If there were any, I might.
>>To answer the statement in post #19, there are by some counts some 300 prophecies in the Old Testament of the coming Messiah.
RESPONSE:
So? There may be three hundred very general statements that could be applied to anyone, but instead are interpreted as prophecies of the Messiah. "He will be a man of sorrows" So is my friend Ralph who is writing his own "inspired" bible. He's frequently sad, too. Does this make him the messiah?
I think more than more than enough posters have debunked your Tyre prophecy claim. Don't you get tired of repeating the same errors? Simply click the "search" to find previous answers. But the first question you have to answer is when was the prophecy written, and when was it fulfilled.
Fulfilled prophecy cannot be debunked. History clearly shows the fulfillment of the prophecy of Tyre. One need only do the research. As I said, the presence of a modern city of Tyre is used by critics in an attempt to discredit the prophecy. But the prophecy was addressed to the Phoenician Empire of Tyre. Present day Tyre and its people have no connection with the Phoenician Empire.
And the posters of whom you speak are skeptics such as yourself.
All information concerning the prophecy of Tyre is available on the internet.
Quote:
>>Do you think that Matthew wasn't aware that there was no specific prophecy by a prophet concerning Narzareth?<<
RESPONSE:
No. It was only one of Matthew's many scriptural blunders. Here's another. Matthew 27
"Then was fulfilled what had been spoken through the prophet Jeremiah,* ‘And they took* the thirty pieces of silver, the price of the one on whom a price had been set,* on whom some of the people of Israel had set a price, 10and they gave* them for the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me.’" (NRSV)
Problem: There's no such prophecy in Jeremiah. Some claim that Matthew was using a book contain other prophetic writings and got mixed up. But this alternative fail too. The only mention of thirty pieces of silver in scripture, is that involves in a labor dispute in Zechariah.
Once again, this has been addressed by scholars and commentators. Those interested can refer to the following --> Matthew 27:9 Bible Commentary
There is not a single objection or argument that a skeptic can make which has not already been addressed by commentators.
You'll notice that I am not wasting my time going into great detail. This is because you have shown yourself to be opposed to the truth and will not listen to anything that anyone has to say. For that reason, I simply point you to sources which refute your skeptical arguments. This is really for the benefit of others.
There is a difference between an honest skeptic who will objectively listen to the evidence and is willing to change his views in light of the evidence, and a skeptic who is dead set on discrediting the Bible no matter what evidence is presented to him.
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