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1. eternal means without endor beginning - since all of us have had a beginning, it can not be truly said we would ever have eternal life
2. scripture defines what 'eternal life' is in John 17:3 - it is simply knowing God. Exact duration is not specified.
And as Phaze said above, it is quite common for words like 'eternal', 'everlasting', 'forever', etc. to be used in situations as an allegory where we only mean something that seems like a long time.
Also its helpful to remember that Jesus didn't speak English.
No man can know God except His eternal nature is imparted to that man. It written, "eternal life is to know Him uprightly." The Life of Christ is eternal because it has no beginning or end. Only His flesh had a beginning and an end but He proved His unending/eternal existence by the resurrection.
I've only heard a few URs say that it "never" means eternal. Other's I've heard say it depends on the context it is used but is more often used with aidios (Imperceivable) as a qualifier in it is to mean eternal. Aristotle quote: "The entire heaven is one and eternal (aidios) having neither beginning nor end of an entire aion."
As for Aionion, its hard to say, but I have heard that Josephus and Philo, Jewish Greeks, who wrote between the Old and New Testaments, use the word [aionion] with the meaning of temporal duration, always. The following quote from Josephus should be noted. Alluding to the Pharisees, Josephus says: "They believe that the wicked are detained in an everlasting prison (eirgmon aidion) subject to eternal punishment" (aidios timoria) and the Essenes (another, Jewish sect) "Allotted to bad souls a dark, tempestuous place, full of never-ceasing punishment (timoria adialeipton) where they suffer a deathless punishment, (athanaton timorian)." Though this may be seen as some as proof of eternal punishment, Jesus didn't exactly like the Pharisees much.
But one thing should be obivous even to ETers: Aion and its various word forms do not ALWAYS mean Eternal. the same goes for the Hebrew Word Olam, unless Jonah spent forever in the whale ;p
1. eternal means without endor beginning - since all of us have had a beginning, it can not be truly said we would ever have eternal life
2. scripture defines what 'eternal life' is in John 17:3 - it is simply knowing God. Exact duration is not specified.
And as Phaze said above, it is quite common for words like 'eternal', 'everlasting', 'forever', etc. to be used in situations as an allegory where we only mean something that seems like a long time.
Also its helpful to remember that Jesus didn't speak English.
God's life has no beginning and no ending. His life is eternal. Because He imputes His life to those who believe in Christ, the believer has God's very own eternal life as of the moment of believing in Christ. Since the believer has received this eternal life of God at a moment in time (the moment of belief in Christ), technically it can be called everlasting life. His eternal relationship looking forward into the eternal future has a beginning, but has no end. But since it is God's own eternal life, the believer has eternal life. There is no such thing as age-during life.
God's life is not eonian, not age-during. It is eternal.
Jesus said, ''And everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never (ouk) die. Do you believe this?'' John 11:26. Unending life. Eternal life. Life forever in the presence of God.
Last edited by Michael Way; 11-17-2011 at 05:01 PM..
I've only heard a few URs say that it "never" means eternal. Other's I've heard say it depends on the context it is used but is more often used with aidios (Imperceivable) as a qualifier in it is to mean eternal. Aristotle quote: "The entire heaven is one and eternal (aidios) having neither beginning nor end of an entire aion."
As for Aionion, its hard to say, but I have heard that Josephus and Philo, Jewish Greeks, who wrote between the Old and New Testaments, use the word [aionion] with the meaning of temporal duration, always. The following quote from Josephus should be noted. Alluding to the Pharisees, Josephus says: "They believe that the wicked are detained in an everlasting prison (eirgmon aidion) subject to eternal punishment" (aidios timoria) and the Essenes (another, Jewish sect) "Allotted to bad souls a dark, tempestuous place, full of never-ceasing punishment (timoria adialeipton) where they suffer a deathless punishment, (athanaton timorian)." Though this may be seen as some as proof of eternal punishment, Jesus didn't exactly like the Pharisees much.
But one thing should be obivous even to ETers: Aion and its various word forms do not ALWAYS mean Eternal. the same goes for the Hebrew Word Olam, unless Jonah spent forever in the whale ;p
This thread addresses those who say that aionion never means eternal. God has eternal life, not age-during life. The believer has the very life of God imputed to him at the very moment he believes in Christ. Those who die never having believed in Christ, will never have eternal life. That is, they will have an eternal existence separated from God in the lake of fire.
John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son (with regard to believing the gospel) shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
As for Philo, Excerpt:
As to Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, §7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alia monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no ‘was’ nor ‘will be,’ is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. On The Greek Words For Eternity And Eternal | plymouthbrethren.org
God's life has no beginning and no ending. His life is eternal. Because He imputes His life to those who believe in Christ, the believer has God's very own eternal life as of the moment of believing in Christ. Since the believer has received this eternal life of God at a moment in time (the moment of belief in Christ), technically it can be called everlasting life. His eternal relationship looking forward into the eternal future has a beginning, but has no end. But since it is God's own eternal life, the believer has eternal life. There is no such thing as age-during life.
God's life is not eonian, it is eternal.
Jesus said, ''And everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never (ouk) die. Do you believe this?'' John 11:26. Unending life. Eternal life. Life forever in the presence of God.
Whether life begins again, still it ends. Everyone dies... Being a Christ follower doesn't stop death (and sometimes very painful death) from coming.
Eternal life is DEFINED by your lord and savior yet you still want to change that meaning?
Whether life begins again, still it ends. Everyone dies... Being a Christ follower doesn't stop death (and sometimes very painful death) from coming.
Eternal life is DEFINED by your lord and savior yet you still want to change that meaning?
The believer in Jesus Christ has eternal life despite, and before physical death. Physical death is simply separation of the soul from the body. John 11:25 'Jesus said to her, ''I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies.
The believer has eternal in life the very moment he believes in Christ. At the moment of physical death, the soul of the believer goes into the presence of God in heaven See Revelation 6:9-11 and Rev 20:4. Those passages show the souls of Old Testament saints and Tribulational martyrs in heaven. The time will come when their bodies will be resurrected and then they will rejoin their bodies. Those bodies will be immortal and incorruptable.
The believer in Christ has eternal life not only before his body is resurrected, but before his mortal body even dies. He has it the very moment he believes in Christ. 1 John 5:13.
The believer in Jesus Christ has eternal life despite, and before physical death. Physical death is simply separation of the soul from the body. John 11:25 'Jesus said to her, ''I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies.
The believer has eternal in life the very moment he believes in Christ. At the moment of physical death, the soul of the believer goes into the presence of God in heaven See Revelation 6:9-11 and Rev 20:4. Those passages show the souls of Old Testament saints and Tribulational martyrs in heaven. The time will come when their bodies will be resurrected and then they will rejoin their bodies. Those bodies will be immortal and incorruptable.
The believer in Christ has eternal life not only before his body is resurrected, but before his mortal body even dies. He has it the very moment he believes in Christ. 1 John 5:13.
Yes... The believer knows god and the one he sent.... Eternal life as defined by jesus in John 17. That is not the same as immortality as you seem to think it is a state of living now before death.
Many of God people believe aionios life is the fullness of life in Christ, and because of this error they have a hard time answering the eternal punishment and eternal life scriptures.
They will state such things as aionios can mean something different within one sentence, and it subject determines the fullness or lack thereof of the meaning.
But the Universalist need not change the meaning of aionios in such a fashion to understand Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being. For there are other words in scripture to show forth Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being.
Before I show how God is eternal in the sense of without beginning and without end lets look at a few more scriptures that will help the reader understand aionios only means age-lasting and is of limited duration.
The Hebrew word for aionios is olam, so lets look at a few scriptures from the old testament.
Habakkuk 3:6
6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.
The reader can see here that both the hills and Gods ways are everlasting. So if olam or aionios in the Greek means without beginning and without end then the hills had no beginning and will have no end, but we know that the hills have a beginning and we no that they have an end because they bow down.
Now the only way for those who believe in eternal torment can get around this is to say olam means one thing in the first part of the sentence and means something else in the second part of the sentence. Thus even though Matt says the Universalist must do this in order for their theology to work, we can see that those who believe in eternal torment must do this in order to make their theology to work. But the Unversalist need not do thing in order for their theology to work, I’ll show why in a few minutes, please bare with me.
Psalm 41:13
13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
Psalm 90:1-2
1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Here the reader can see God is from olam/aionios to olam/aionios.
If olam/aionios means without beginning and without end then these scripture makes absolutely no sense, for can there be more then ONE eternity? Hardly, so the reader cans see olam/aionios is used in the limited sense of age-lasting.
So as the reader can see olam/aionios means age-lasting and is always used in a limited sense.
But some will say if it is always used in a limited sense then that would mean aionios life is also limited in duration. This is CORRECT, aionios life is of limited duration.
I already know many will say that’s blaspheme, but bare with me for a few more moments if you will.
Lets go back to Ps.90 for a moment and read it again.
Psalm 90:1-2
1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
We have already seen olam/aionios is of limited duration, but what else does this scripture tell us? It tells us that the LIFE of God is GREATER then that of olam/aionios, for God is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios.
The Life of God and of Christ is not just olam/aionios but their LIFE is MORE then that, yea MUCH MORE. Their LIFE exceeds the olam/aionios life just as a week exceeds a day, a month exceeds a week and a year exceeds a month, so to does the LIFE of God in Christ exceed olam/aionios LIFE.
The error both camps fall into is the belief that aionios life is all the life there is in God and Christ. But as the reader just read God is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios, thus is it not then clear that we to in Christ are given a LIFE far greater then just olam/aionios LIFE.
Lets read in Hebrew and you will see Christ life (and therefore ours) exceeds that of olam/aionios life.
Hebrews 7:16
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Akatalutos-Endless: indissoluble, not subject to destruction
From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end
Now as Akatalutos-Endless clearly shows that of a life without end, why did not the writers of the scriptures use Akatalutos concerning punishment and life instead of olam/aionios? Is it not because olam/aionios is of limited duration?
What we receive in Christ is a AKATALUTOS/ENDLESS LIFE, a life that spans EVERY olam/aionios age-lasting life. Just as Gods life is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios so to is ours in Christ.
Lets read in Pet. To further see this life we are to inherit that is MUCH MORE then olam/aionios life.
1 Peter 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Aphthartos-incorruptible: uncorrupted, not liable to corruption or decay, imperishable
Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end
Amarantos-fadeth not away: not fading away, unfading, perennial
Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end
Can not the reader see here just how much more grand our life is in Christ then just olam/aionios age-abiding life?
These are just a few examples of how MUCH MORE our life in Christ is then olam/aionios life.
If punishment was to be eternal in the sense of without beginning and without end surely the Holy Spirit would have use one of the words expressed above to show this, but NEVER is any of these words that express endlessness EVER used in the punishments of God.
Praise God there is MUCH MORE to life in Christ then just that of olam/aionios life, and it is because so many of God people do not realise this that they fall into the error of changing the meaning of words within the same sentence.
Brothers and sister there is absolutely no need to do this if one can but see the life we have in Christ is MUCH MORE then olam/aionios life.
Even FROM everlasting TO everlasting, thou art God.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
The words bolded above are translated from aionios. But now let's use the translation I have perceived:
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into AGE-CONTINUING punishment: the righteous into life AGE-CONTINUING.
See if we use the meaning the mainstream uses and intepret it as eternal then we are still left without clarify for example, is it eternal meaning both "without end and beginning", if so then that would mean the PUNISHMENT never had a beginning. Now if someone says it only means from henceforth to having no end (but did have a beginning) then we would make a mockery of God to call Him ETERNAL in that respect because God didn't have a beginning. So therefore for someone to attach the consistent identity of ETERNAL meaning without end or beginning would have to acknowledge the PUNISHMENT as having never had a beginning also if they are going to acknowledge God as the ETERNAL God who had no beginning or end.
Many of God people believe aionios life is the fullness of life in Christ, and because of this error they have a hard time answering the eternal punishment and eternal life scriptures. . . .
Brothers and sister there is absolutely no need to do this if one can but see the life we have in Christ is MUCH MORE then olam/aionios life.
Even FROM everlasting TO everlasting, thou art God.
Excellent Post pneuma.
When the eons/aeons end there will no longer be eonian/aeonian punishment or even eonian/aeonian life. The simple reason being is there will no longer be eons/aeons in which to live. We will live beyond the eons/aeons due to immortality.
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MUCH MORE then aionios life
