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Jesus separates Himself from water baptism in Acts 1:5.
Acts 1:5 - for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.
So the baptism mentioned in the Great Commission does not involve water - but the Holy Spirit.
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In the world of logic, when A=C and B=C, then A=B.
Verse A Acts 2:38 - "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Verse B1 John 7:39 -But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Verse B2 Eph. 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
So from the logic standpoint.
"A" is baptism in the name of Jesus
"B" is believing in Christ/the gospel
"C" is receiving the gift of the Spirit
Both A and B result in C - therefore the believing in the gospel of Christ is the same as being baptized into Christ - both resulting in the reception of the Spirit.
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Why not water? Christ said it's John's baptism. And the reason John baptized in water is spelled out in John 1:29-34. It was to identify Jesus as the Messiah. Once that happened, John's ministry decreased before he was beheaded.
What about Peter in Acts 10 with Cornelius? First, Jesus never commanded baptism in water. Second, Cornelius had already received the Holy Spirit. According to the verse from A above - the fact that he had received the Spirit indicates that he was already baptized into Christ before being immersed in the water.
So why did Peter suggest a water baptism? I don't know. Maybe tradition since John's baptism was popular and it carried weight with certain leaders. We never hear of it mentioned as a criteria for salvation (Acts 15 for example).
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What about 1 Peter 3?
1 Pet. 3:21 - Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Baptsim now saves you. Again - see the verses above. Baptism saves us through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is not a cleanup of the flesh, but of our insides with the presence of the Spirit.
Jesus separates Himself from water baptism in Acts 1:5.
Acts 1:5 - for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.
So the baptism mentioned in the Great Commission does not involve water - but the Holy Spirit.
-----------------------------
In the world of logic, when A=C and B=C, then A=B.
Verse A Acts 2:38 - "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Verse B1 John 7:39 -But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Verse B2 Eph. 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
So from the logic standpoint.
"A" is baptism in the name of Jesus
"B" is believing in Christ/the gospel
"C" is receiving the gift of the Spirit
Both A and B result in C - therefore the believing in the gospel of Christ is the same as being baptized into Christ - both resulting in the reception of the Spirit.
------------------------------------------
Why not water? Christ said it's John's baptism. And the reason John baptized in water is spelled out in John 1:29-34. It was to identify Jesus as the Messiah. Once that happened, John's ministry decreased before he was beheaded.
What about Peter in Acts 10 with Cornelius? First, Jesus never commanded baptism in water. Second, Cornelius had already received the Holy Spirit. According to the verse from A above - the fact that he had received the Spirit indicates that he was already baptized into Christ before being immersed in the water.
So why did Peter suggest a water baptism? I don't know. Maybe tradition since John's baptism was popular and it carried weight with certain leaders. We never hear of it mentioned as a criteria for salvation (Acts 15 for example).
---------------------------------------
What about 1 Peter 3?
1 Pet. 3:21 - Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Baptsim now saves you. Again - see the verses above. Baptism saves us through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is not a cleanup of the flesh, but of our insides with the presence of the Spirit.
There have been so many threads denying that baptism by water in the name of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, saves or gives the HOly Spirit, I thought I would ask a question of anyone who cares to answer. In John 3 Jesus clearly ties proper baptism with water.
Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
Leter in Acts, water is clearly tied to baptism:
Ac 8:36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn’t I be baptized?"
The New Testament Epistles also refer to water and the word being a means of salvation.
Eph 5:26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
Tit 3:4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
Since some of you claim water baptism is unnecessary, I just have a question: How is anyone to know if they have been truly baptized if they have not had a water baptism with the trinitarian formula. That is :How is someone to know if they have received the Holy Spirit and a valid baptism if they never received an actual water baptism? I would argue that the water baptism must done as Jesus commanded in order for one to know they have genuinely baptized and therefore Born Again.
Last edited by augiedogie; 12-20-2011 at 09:26 PM..
Reason: incomplete
There have been so many threads denying that baptism by water in the name of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, saves or gives the HOly Spirit, I thought I would ask a question of anyone who cares to answer. In John 3 Jesus clearly ties proper baptism with water.
Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
Leter in Acts, water is clearly tied to baptism: Ac 8:36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn’t I be baptized?"
The New Testament Epistles also refer to water and the word being a means of salvation.
Eph 5:26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
Tit 3:4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
Since some of you claim water baptism is unnecessary, I just have a question: How is anyone to know if they have been truly baptized if they have not had a water baptism with the trinitarian formula. That is :How is someone to know if they have received the Holy Spirit and a valid baptism if they never received an actual water baptism? I would argue that the water baptism must done as Jesus commanded in order for one to know they have genuinely baptized and therefore Born Again.
Regarding John 3:5 - Born of the water is not baptism, it is our earthly birth. In other words, you need to be a living person with the Holy Spirit to enter the kingdom.
Regarding Acts 8:36 - OK he was immersed in water. What resulted from that action? Again - Jesus never commanded a water baptism for His followers. Were the disciples ever baptized in water by Christ?
Regarding the question in bold...
Rom. 8:16 - The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
The Holy Spirit testifies through the testimony of the believer. If you believe and fully understand the gospel message - you have the Holy Spirit. That's what happened with Cornelius.
There have been so many threads denying that baptism by water in the name of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, saves or gives the HOly Spirit, I thought I would ask a question of anyone who cares to answer. In John 3 Jesus clearly ties proper baptism with water.
Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
It is my understanding that Jesus was not speaking about physical water or ‘baptism’. If you look at the next chapter:
Joh 4:10, 13-14
(10) Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, 'Give me a drink,' you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water."
(13) Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again,
(14) but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
Jesus speaks of this “living water”. Clearly figurative language is being displayed here.
Last edited by kids in america_; 12-21-2011 at 06:30 AM..
Regarding John 3:5 - Born of the water is not baptism, it is our earthly birth. In other words, you need to be a living person with the Holy Spirit to enter the kingdom.
If this is true is there anyone on earth who is not a living person? Why would Jesus find in necessary to point out to Nicodemus that he had to be a living person to enter the kingdom of God. Did Jesus really think that Nicodemus would assume that anyone other than a living person could enter the kingdom of God?
Quote:
Regarding Acts 8:36 - OK he was immersed in water. What resulted from that action? Again - Jesus never commanded a water baptism for His followers. Were the disciples ever baptized in water by Christ?
Jesus certainly did command a water baptism for His followers (see Matthew 28:19). Whether or not His immediate disciples were ever baptized in water we aren't told. Since Jesus commanded water baptism we must assume that they were.
Quote:
Regarding the question in bold...
Rom. 8:16 - The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
The Holy Spirit testifies through the testimony of the believer. If you believe and fully understand the gospel message - you have the Holy Spirit. That's what happened with Cornelius.
No, that is not what happened with Cornelius. Romans 8:16 is referring to a person who is already indwelt by the Holy Spirit, therefore is one who has already been baptized in water (see Acts 2:28).
If this is true is there anyone on earth who is not a living person? Why would Jesus find in necessary to point out to Nicodemus that he had to be a living person to enter the kingdom of God. Did Jesus really think that Nicodemus would assume that anyone other than a living person could enter the kingdom of God?
I am just repeating what Christ said. He said "born of water" - not baptized in water.
My question to you is do you know the context? Do you know the question Nicodemus asked that warranted Jesus' response?
John 3:3-4 - Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Nicodemus brought up natural childbirth in his question. That's why Jesus answered the way He did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GREATDIVIDE46
Jesus certainly did command a water baptism for His followers (see Matthew 28:19). Whether or not His immediate disciples were ever baptized in water we aren't told. Since Jesus commanded water baptism we must assume that they were.
He did not command a water baptism. I don't know what you are reading. I don't see a mention of water in the Great Commission. I DO see a mention of the Holy Spirit in Matthew 28, as well as in Acts 1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GREATDIVIDE46
No, that is not what happened with Cornelius. Romans 8:16 is referring to a person who is already indwelt by the Holy Spirit, therefore is one who has already been baptized in water (see Acts 2:28).
Cornelius received the Holy Spirit before Peter suggested baptizing him in water. Acts 2:38 says that when one is baptized into Christ, they will receive the gift of the Spirit. He received the Spirit - so that indicates he was already baptized into Christ (which the Bible equates with believing the gospel as described in the OP).
I am just repeating what Christ said. He said "born of water" - not baptized in water.
Actually you're leaving out part of Christ said. He said, "born of water and Sprit." That's a single birth.
Quote:
My question to you is do you know the context? Do you know the question Nicodemus asked that warranted Jesus' response?
Yep, I know the context and Jesus is not talking about physical birth in John 3:5. He's responding to Nicodemus' first question in verse 4. His response to Nicodemus' question regarding natural childbirth is in verse 6.
Quote:
He did not command a water baptism. I don't know what you are reading. I don't see a mention of water in the Great Commission. I DO see a mention of the Holy Spirit in Matthew 28, as well as in Acts 1.
If you don't see water in the Great Commission you apparently don't know the definition of the Greek word "baptizo." Also, I wonder how Jesus' disciples would follow a command to baptize people that didn't involve water.
Quote:
Cornelius received the Holy Spirit before Peter suggested baptizing him in water. Acts 2:38 says that when one is baptized into Christ, they will receive the gift of the Spirit. He received the Spirit - so that indicates he was already baptized into Christ (which the Bible equates with believing the gospel as described in the OP).
What Cornelius received before Peter suggested baptizing him in water was the gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit. That's why Peter knew he was eligible to receive the indwelling, regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit through baptism in water.
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