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God is not going to let people suffer forever, and certainly He is not going to physically burn people in fire forever. That would be sadistic and evil. Even the more "tolerable" alternative of "eternal separation", left to suffer with your own thoughts, perhaps screaming in the dark, falling forever (these are different descriptions I have heard) would be just as sadistic and tortuous.
How can we know that God is not going to let people suffer forever? Because God is love. God provides for all people. God knew us in the womb, before were even born. God knows us intimately. He created us knowing all this. Love doesn't give up. Love protects, and Love will win.
Furthermore God provides salvation and hope for all people through His son Jesus Christ, whom He sent to be savior of the world, to take away all sins, and to be the savior of all people. God did this because He loves each person, individually. People will point to the scripture that says God hated Esau, without realizing that we all have an Esau with us. God does hate sin and when we sin. However, that is the old man, which ultimately will die within each of us, leaving only a new creation that God is working within us.
While we were still sinners, Christ died for the ungodly. If that isn't a description of love for everyone, I don't know what is. God is love... love is patient, kind, enduring, protecting, forgiving, not keeping a record of wrongs. Love serves to correct, not torture forever. God corrects us through judgment, and we will all be judged. This process is similar to refinement in fire, and that is how judgment is often compared within in the bible - trial by fire. Even the Lake of fire is for judgment. But what does judgment do? It serves to correct and make right. And certainly that is what God's loving judgment does - it will correct and make right.
Isaiah tells us when God's judgments come in the earth, the inhabitants of the world (ie. everyone) will learn what righteousness is. This is not a threat of being eternally "judged" to a fiery torture pit, but simply showing the purpose of God's judgments: to teach us what is right - to make us right, so we will be righteous. After all that is why Jesus came - to make all people righteous.
And it is not right that someone should be left to suffer forever. That is axiomatically wrong.
For centuries the mainline churches have taught that people will suffer forever in some fabled fiery hell, perhaps something Dante dreamed up. No doubt scriptures that speak of the lake of fire in Revelations or eternal punishment in Matt 25:46 might suggest that, but these suggestions contradict the very idea that God is love, and they contradict the very idea of justice. If you honestly study where these ideas of eternal torture in fire came from, you will see it is due to mistranslations/misinterpetations of the words "eternal" & "hell", and it largely came from previous pagan religions.
Regardless, if we can open our mind and understand that the so-called "hell" verses are misinterpretations, scripture is quite clear on what God is doing.
- God wills and desires to save all people
- God's word will achieve what He desires (duh, He wouldn't be God otherwise)
- Jesus is the savior of all people, especially believers. This does not mean exclusively believers, it simply means that believers are saved "specially" - meaning they realize it and can enjoy it now.
- In Adam all were made sinners, but in Christ (the second Adam), all will be made righteous.
The true test in all this is the fruits of the spirit: joy, love, peace. How can there be any of these fruits in heaven all the while knowing billions are suffering ENDLESSLY? If we really had love in our heart, love of our neighbor, love of our enemy, we would not stop until each one of these was released from their torment. Love FORGIVES. Love PROTECTS. Love ENDURES. That is what God is. That is what we are to become. How could that be compatible with people suffering endlessly? Answer: It cannot. In the end love will win.
God is mischaracterized by those who evaluate the things He says and does and make conclusions about what He will/not do ... on the basis of human feelings and logic. ....The lie of Satan is still: "Surely, you will not die"
God is mischaracterized by those who evaluate the things He says and does and make conclusions about what He will/not do ... on the basis of human feelings and logic. ....The lie of Satan is still: "Surely, you will not die"
the only human feeling that applies is the crazy idea that unending torture is ok if the burning of children in Jeremiah is against God's teachings how can ET as punishment be even close to his ways?
the only human feeling that applies is the crazy idea that unending torture is ok if the burning of children in Jeremiah is against God's teachings how can ET as punishment be even close to his ways?
Indeed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton
God is mischaracterized by those who evaluate the things He says and does and make conclusions about what He will/not do ... on the basis of human feelings and logic. ....The lie of Satan is still: "Surely, you will not die"
How does this apply to my OP?
jghorton, we know what love is:
Love is patient, kind, forgiving, enduring, protecting.
By that definition alone God cannot let anyone suffer forever.
1 Peter 5:10(New American Standard Bible)
After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.
God will restore us to Himself. I am counting on that day!
1 Peter 5:10(New American Standard Bible)
After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.
God will restore us to Himself. I am counting on that day!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be implying this passage is written about universal salvation. If so, I disagree. This passage is written to believers (the church).
1 Peter 5
1 To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ’s sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2 Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; 3 not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. 4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.
5 Young men, in the same way be submissive to those who are older. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because,
“God opposes the proud
but gives grace to the humble.”[a]
6 Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. 7 Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.
8 Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9 Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings. 10 And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. 11 To him be the power for ever and ever. Amen.
If you could read the NT in Greek, you'd be able to see that John 3:16 actually starts out, "for in this way, God loved the world." The question is, "in what way" If you look at the preceding verse its reads. Jn 3:15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. And what follows also reflects this. that He gave HIs one and only Son.....
The point I am making is that God's love for the world is manifested in Christ. This is how God loved the world, is that He gave is son as an attoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. He show His love in that the salvation JEsus earned is a gift to all who trust in Jesus and repent of their sins.
If you do a word search in the NT on the phrases, you will find all kinds of references to "in Christ" or "in Christ Jesus" My point is that outside of this love for the world "in Christ", there is no salvation. So if people reject God's love, that is Christ, then there is nothing left to mankind but God's wrath and judgment. Yes God is love, but He is also a God of justice. Those who have done evil get the punishment they deserve, and without Christ, God's justice will be done.
God is not going to let people suffer forever, and certainly He is not going to physically burn people in fire forever. That would be sadistic and evil. Even the more "tolerable" alternative of "eternal separation", left to suffer with your own thoughts, perhaps screaming in the dark, falling forever (these are different descriptions I have heard) would be just as sadistic and tortuous.
How can we know that God is not going to let people suffer forever? Because God is love. God provides for all people. God knew us in the womb, before were even born. God knows us intimately. He created us knowing all this. Love doesn't give up. Love protects, and Love will win.
Furthermore God provides salvation and hope for all people through His son Jesus Christ, whom He sent to be savior of the world, to take away all sins, and to be the savior of all people. God did this because He loves each person, individually. People will point to the scripture that says God hated Esau, without realizing that we all have an Esau with us. God does hate sin and when we sin. However, that is the old man, which ultimately will die within each of us, leaving only a new creation that God is working within us.
While we were still sinners, Christ died for the ungodly. If that isn't a description of love for everyone, I don't know what is. God is love... love is patient, kind, enduring, protecting, forgiving, not keeping a record of wrongs. Love serves to correct, not torture forever. God corrects us through judgment, and we will all be judged. This process is similar to refinement in fire, and that is how judgment is often compared within in the bible - trial by fire. Even the Lake of fire is for judgment. But what does judgment do? It serves to correct and make right. And certainly that is what God's loving judgment does - it will correct and make right.
Isaiah tells us when God's judgments come in the earth, the inhabitants of the world (ie. everyone) will learn what righteousness is. This is not a threat of being eternally "judged" to a fiery torture pit, but simply showing the purpose of God's judgments: to teach us what is right - to make us right, so we will be righteous. After all that is why Jesus came - to make all people righteous.
And it is not right that someone should be left to suffer forever. That is axiomatically wrong.
For centuries the mainline churches have taught that people will suffer forever in some fabled fiery hell, perhaps something Dante dreamed up. No doubt scriptures that speak of the lake of fire in Revelations or eternal punishment in Matt 25:46 might suggest that, but these suggestions contradict the very idea that God is love, and they contradict the very idea of justice. If you honestly study where these ideas of eternal torture in fire came from, you will see it is due to mistranslations/misinterpetations of the words "eternal" & "hell", and it largely came from previous pagan religions.
Regardless, if we can open our mind and understand that the so-called "hell" verses are misinterpretations, scripture is quite clear on what God is doing.
- God wills and desires to save all people
- God's word will achieve what He desires (duh, He wouldn't be God otherwise)
- Jesus is the savior of all people, especially believers. This does not mean exclusively believers, it simply means that believers are saved "specially" - meaning they realize it and can enjoy it now.
- In Adam all were made sinners, but in Christ (the second Adam), all will be made righteous.
The true test in all this is the fruits of the spirit: joy, love, peace. How can there be any of these fruits in heaven all the while knowing billions are suffering ENDLESSLY? If we really had love in our heart, love of our neighbor, love of our enemy, we would not stop until each one of these was released from their torment. Love FORGIVES. Love PROTECTS. Love ENDURES. That is what God is. That is what we are to become. How could that be compatible with people suffering endlessly? Answer: It cannot. In the end love will win.
in your second paragraph , you state that god provides for all people , if this is the case , home come some people are starving ? , also , if god provides for all people , why do christians claim that starving people are not the responsibility of god but people , surely this also contradicts your claim that god provides for all , the most basic provision of all is food so therefore by your posts logic , it must be the responsibility of god to ensure everyone has food
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if the burning of children in Jeremiah is against God's teachings how can ET as punishment be even close to his ways?
