Who here believes Jesus Christ died for your sins? (believer, dogma, scriptures)
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Christ's death ONLY coveres those "PAST" sins of those who sincerely repent of them and turn from them forever, who continue to live on in the righteousness of Christ. His death doesn't touch the PAST sins, nor are they forgotten for that matter, if they have not repented once and for all time, and given their life to Christ.
If you continue to live...transgressing any of the laws of God...your sins have not been forgotten nor forgiven...not one bit. Selah.
Verna, I wish you could see your legalism for what it is. Jesus died for the sins of the world. He paid in full the penalty for every sin that has been, or ever will be committed in human history.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
Heb 10:10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
The sanctification being spoken of here is not experiential sanctification which results from the spiritual growth of the believer after salvation, but rather, the sanctification being spoken of is positional sanctification which refers to the believer's Position in Christ at the moment he trusts in Christ for eternal life. Every believer is a saint and therefore sanctified positionally. The believer can never lose his position in Christ Jesus.
Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'
'Have been sanctified' is in the Perfect tense which means that the believer has been sanctified by faith in Christ. The sanctification (positional) has been completed with the result that the sanctification continues on in full effect.
Perfect Tense
The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect. In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action. Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions)
Sin is therefore not the issue either in becoming eternally saved, or in remaining eternally saved. The work of salvation was accomplished in full by Jesus Christ on the cross. It is finished. All sin was judged at the cross. The sins of the unbeliever are therefore forgiven when he trusts in Christ for salvation. The sins that the believer commits after salvation cannot cause him to lose his eternal salvation, but only put him into a state of carnality where he is out of fellowship and under the control of his old sin nature. They do not affect his eternal security in any way. The carnal believer recovers his fellowship - that is, his day to day rapport with God (abiding in Christ) by applying the principle of 1 John 1:9 in which he simply names or acknowledges his sin to God. That sin is then forgiven and the believer is back under the control of the Holy Spirit instead of his sin nature.
Verna, I am not being judgmental, but anyone who has never understood that they must put the full weight of their trust on Jesus Christ alone for eternal life, but is instead trusting in their efforts to not sin, is relying on their own righteousness to save them and they have therefore not been saved, but remain under condemnation.
The ONLY thing you must do to receive the free gift of eternal life is to place your faith in Jesus Christ for eternal salvation.
Acts 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31] They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household (contingent upon their own personal faith in Jesus)."
Your discipleship after eternal salvation through faith alone in Christ alone is an entirely different issue and is not in any way connected with becoming eternally saved or remaining eternally saved.
Eternal life is free for the asking. It costs you nothing because Jesus Christ paid the price in full.
Discipleship after eternal salvation costs you time, effort and commitment to learn and apply the word of God to your life.
Eternal salvation and discipleship are two entirely different things.
The ONLY thing you must do to receive the free gift of eternal life is to place your faith in Jesus Christ for eternal salvation.
This last sentence is problematic. If it's a "free gift," then there isn't any requirements at all. Saying there is only one work that must be done to earn the gift precludes the notion that it is a free gift. If there is a requirement at all, it is earned. If there is no requirement at all, then salvation is arbitrary and nothing anyone says, does, believes, or watches on TV matters one iota. Your soteriology cannot have it both ways. Either it is earned or it is utterly arbitrary.
I don't. I believe we have done nothing wrong to atone for. I also believe allowing an innocent man to be sacrificed for the supposed wrong doings of others is in it of itself wrong. If I was convicted of a crime,one I matianed innocence of I didn't do I would not allow anyone to take my punishment no matter how sincere or generous I thought he was. I further believe taking the word of a book written at least two thousand years ago with questionable origins and various interpretations that the action took place is dubious.
This last sentence is problematic. If it's a "free gift," then there isn't any requirements at all. Saying there is only one work that must be done to earn the gift precludes the notion that it is a free gift. If there is a requirement at all, it is earned. If there is no requirement at all, then salvation is arbitrary and nothing anyone says, does, believes, or watches on TV matters one iota. Your soteriology cannot have it both ways. Either it is earned or it is utterly arbitrary.
To the contrary. There is nothing problematic about it at all. Faith is non-meritorius. The merit is in the object of faith, which in eternal salvation is Jesus Christ. The work of salvation was done by Jesus Christ on the cross. But to receive the benefit of what Christ accomplished on the cross, one must trust in what He accomplished. It is through faith that one takes possession of the free gift.
Salvation is by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
As the Scriptures show, eternal life is a gift, it is by grace, it is though faith in Jesus Christ, and faith is distinquished from works. Grace is the policy of the justice of God in blessing mankind based on the finished work of Christ on the cross.
Salvation is not arbitrary. God can only offer eternal life to the human race because the justice of God was satisfied by imputing the sins of the world to Jesus Christ who paid the penalty for them. God is therefore free to impute His own perfect righteousness to anyone who simply trusts in Jesus Christ for eternal life.
Here are 17 hours on the doctrine of Soteriology or salvation.
Verna, I wish you could see your legalism for what it is. Jesus died for the sins of the world. He paid in full the penalty for every sin that has been, or ever will be committed in human history.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
Heb 10:10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
The sanctification being spoken of here is not experiential sanctification which results from the spiritual growth of the believer after salvation, but rather, the sanctification being spoken of is positional sanctification which refers to the believer's Position in Christ at the moment he trusts in Christ for eternal life. Every believer is a saint and therefore sanctified positionally. The believer can never lose his position in Christ Jesus.
Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'
'Have been sanctified' is in the Perfect tense which means that the believer has been sanctified by faith in Christ. The sanctification (positional) has been completed with the result that the sanctification continues on in full effect.
Perfect Tense
The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect. In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action. Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions)
Sin is therefore not the issue either in becoming eternally saved, or in remaining eternally saved. The work of salvation was accomplished in full by Jesus Christ on the cross. It is finished. All sin was judged at the cross. The sins of the unbeliever are therefore forgiven when he trusts in Christ for salvation. The sins that the believer commits after salvation cannot cause him to lose his eternal salvation, but only put him into a state of carnality where he is out of fellowship and under the control of his old sin nature. They do not affect his eternal security in any way. The carnal believer recovers his fellowship - that is, his day to day rapport with God (abiding in Christ) by applying the principle of 1 John 1:9 in which he simply names or acknowledges his sin to God. That sin is then forgiven and the believer is back under the control of the Holy Spirit instead of his sin nature.
Verna, I am not being judgmental, but anyone who has never understood that they must put the full weight of their trust on Jesus Christ alone for eternal life, but is instead trusting in their efforts to not sin, is relying on their own righteousness to save them and they have therefore not been saved, but remain under condemnation.
The ONLY thing you must do to receive the free gift of eternal life is to place your faith in Jesus Christ for eternal salvation.
Acts 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31] They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household (contingent upon their own personal faith in Jesus)."
Your discipleship after eternal salvation through faith alone in Christ alone is an entirely different issue and is not in any way connected with becoming eternally saved or remaining eternally saved.
Eternal life is free for the asking. It costs you nothing because Jesus Christ paid the price in full.
Discipleship after eternal salvation costs you time, effort and commitment to learn and apply the word of God to your life.
Eternal salvation and discipleship are two entirely different things.
Faith without works is dead faith. Faith is now. Faith is believing. Believing is faith. Faith and believing is witnessed in the changed life of one. CHANGED means CHANGED. Changed into what ? Changed into a new creation in Christ Jesus. How were they chainged ? By the power of the Holy Spirit of God in Christ Jesus. When does this "change" occur ? When one truly, with a pure heart, gets down on their knees, and with a contrite heart, once and for all time, REPENTS...and I mean sderiously REPENTS>and is changed>into the "New Man" in Christ Jesus.
I know the difference in being a true Christian and becoming a disciple of Jesus Christ...and I know what it means to be submitted and committed...I AM...it takes good works...it takes walking in the righteousness of Jesus Christ. "Be ye holy as I am holy" the Lord said. "If you love me, keep my commandments" the Lord said. "Faith without works is dead" the Lord said. "If you will enter into life, keep my commandments" the Lord said......
...He said a lot of things in Scripture Mike that totally goes against your misguided theology.
You need to study up on what does the word believe entail...and what does the word faith mean. THEY ARE BOTH ACTION WORDS.
JESUS' DEATH ON THE CROSS DID NOT PAY IN FULL THE PRICE OF THOSE WHOS SINS HAVE NOT BEEN REPENTED OF...THEY WALLER IN THEM TO THIS DAY WITHOUT THE SAVING GRACE OF GOD THROUGH FAITH IN HIS SON, JESUS CHRIST...<<< HERE WE ARE AGAIN MIKE...FAITH IN JESUS CHRST...AGAIN...FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF WHAT FAITH MEANS AND WHAT HAVING IT ENTAILS.
To the contrary. There is nothing problematic about it at all. Faith is non-meritorius.
If it's non-meritorious then there would not be a desirable recompense specifically for faith. You're nakedly asserting that faith doesn't count as a requirement when it absolutely and obviously does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
The merit is in the object of faith, which in eternal salvation is Jesus Christ. The work of salvation was done by Jesus Christ on the cross. But to receive the benefit of what Christ accomplished on the cross, one must trust in what He accomplished. It is through faith that one takes possession of the free gift.
Salvation is by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.
If faith is required, then faith is a requirement. If it's a requirement, then one must meet the requirement for the recompense. If one must meet the requirement, the recompense is earned by the one who meets the requirement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
As the Scriptures show, eternal life is a gift, it is by grace, it is though faith in Jesus Christ, and faith is distinquished from works.
So you're insisting faith is arbitrary. That's fine, you just have to acknowledge that it means nothing anyone says, does, believes, eats, etc., has anything at all to do with their eternal welfare. Evangelism, going to church, etc., are all a complete and utter waste of time. We either get saved by that great roll of the dice in the sky or we do not, and nothing we do will influence it one way or another. If that's your soteriology then own it, but don't pretend that there can be a requirement that humans must meet that doesn't actually count as a requirement. At least have the good sense to insist that God forces a person to have faith. That maintains the arbitrary nature of salvation and lets you get away with saying one must have faith. It's quite a silly soteriology, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Grace is the policy of the justice of God in blessing mankind based on the finished work of Christ on the cross.
Salvation is not arbitrary. God can only offer eternal life to the human race because the justice of God was satisfied by imputing the sins of the world to Jesus Christ who paid the penalty for them. God is therefore free to impute His own perfect righteousness to anyone who simply trusts in Jesus Christ for eternal life.
So God cannot save someone who does not choose to put their trust in Jesus, but he will save everyone who decides to put their trust in Jesus? That means the proximate cause of salvation is each person's personal decision. It also means that decision earns one salvation, making it merited. It is simply a logical contradiction to insist that there's nothing we can do to be saved, but that there's something we can do to be saved. Fundamentalists have too long ignored this flagrant fallacy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Here are 17 hours on the doctrine of Soteriology or salvation.
Faith without works is dead faith. Faith is now. Faith is believing. Believing is faith. Faith and believing is witnessed in the changed life of one. CHANGED means CHANGED. Changed into what ? Changed into a new creation in Christ Jesus. How were they chainged ? By the power of the Holy Spirit of God in Christ Jesus. When does this "change" occur ? When one truly, with a pure heart, gets down on their knees, and with a contrite heart, once and for all time, REPENTS...and I mean sderiously REPENTS>and is changed>into the "New Man" in Christ Jesus.
I know the difference in being a true Christian and becoming a disciple of Jesus Christ...and I know what it means to be submitted and committed...I AM...it takes good works...it takes walking in the righteousness of Jesus Christ. "Be ye holy as I am holy" the Lord said. "If you love me, keep my commandments" the Lord said. "Faith without works is dead" the Lord said. "If you will enter into life, keep my commandments" the Lord said......
...He said a lot of things in Scripture Mike that totally goes against your misguided theology.
You need to study up on what does the word believe entail...and what does the word faith mean. THEY ARE BOTH ACTION WORDS.
JESUS' DEATH ON THE CROSS DID NOT PAY IN FULL THE PRICE OF THOSE WHOS SINS HAVE NOT BEEN REPENTED OF...THEY WALLER IN THEM TO THIS DAY WITHOUT THE SAVING GRACE OF GOD THROUGH FAITH IN HIS SON, JESUS CHRIST...<<< HERE WE ARE AGAIN MIKE...FAITH IN JESUS CHRST...AGAIN...FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF WHAT FAITH MEANS AND WHAT HAVING IT ENTAILS.
Verna, Jesus Christ paid in full the penalty for the sins even of those who never believe in Him. Sin is not even an issue in eternal salvation because the sin problem was taken care of at the cross for everyone. The issue in eternal salvation is simply 'What think you of Jesus Christ?'
Verna, as is the case with so many, you are confusing what is required for the believer in Jesus Christ to have a productive spiritual life, with what is required to have eternal life.
To receive the free gift of eternal life takes only a one time moment of faith in Jesus Christ. To believe in/on Christ - to have faith in Christ means only to be persuaded by means of the gospel that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He died for your sins and rose again. And understanding that, to put the full weight of your trust on Him for your eternal salvation. Eternal life results from a one time decision to simply place your faith in Christ.
When James referred to 'dead faith' he was not contradicting Paul who said that justification is through faith and not by works. Where Paul was referring to justification for eternal life through faith alone in Christ alone, James was talking about the believer's spiritual life after having already been saved. Dead faith refers to a useless, non-productive spiritual life. The believer who is not working out his salvation is still saved eternally, but his spiritual life will produce no fruit.
After stating that man is saved by grace through faith and not by works, Paul then went on to say that man was created for the purpose of good works.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Before you can do good works acceptable to God you must first be eternally saved. The way a man becomes eternally saved is by making a one time decision in response to the gospel, to place his trust in Jesus Christ. Then and only then can the believer begin to grow spiritually and produce good works.
As far as repentance goes, that means to simply change your mind about Christ and about dead works. Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
Metanoia - repentance, means to change your mind. To repent means to change your mind about Christ. You didn't believe in Him, and then you heard the gospel and believed in Him. You repented. It does not mean to feel sorry about sin and promise God that you will never sin again. That is a promise that you cannot keep.
Verna, Scripture states that Jesus Christ died once for all. Jesus said that the work of salvation has been completed. You can do nothing to earn eternal life. It is offered only as a free gift which is taken possession of by simply trusting in Christ for it. Once you are saved through faith alone in Christ alone you are then in a position to start growing spiritually and producing good works.
Verna, Jesus Christ paid in full the penalty for the sins even of those who never believe in Him. Sin is not even an issue in eternal salvation because the sin problem was taken care of at the cross for everyone. The issue in eternal salvation is simply 'What think you of Jesus Christ?'
Verna, as is the case with so many, you are confusing what is required for the believer in Jesus Christ to have a productive spiritual life, with what is required to have eternal life.
To receive the free gift of eternal life takes only a one time moment of faith in Jesus Christ. To believe in/on Christ - to have faith in Christ means only to be persuaded by means of the gospel that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He died for your sins and rose again. And understanding that, to put the full weight of your trust on Him for your eternal salvation. Eternal life results from a one time decision to simply place your faith in Christ.
When James referred to 'dead faith' he was not contradicting Paul who said that justification is through faith and not by works. Where Paul was referring to justification for eternal life through faith alone in Christ alone, James was talking about the believer's spiritual life after having already been saved. Dead faith refers to a useless, non-productive spiritual life. The believer who is not working out his salvation is still saved eternally, but his spiritual life will produce no fruit.
After stating that man is saved by grace through faith and not by works, Paul then went on to say that man was created for the purpose of good works.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Before you can do good works acceptable to God you must first be eternally saved. The way a man becomes eternally saved is by making a one time decision in response to the gospel, to place his trust in Jesus Christ. Then and only then can the believer begin to grow spiritually and produce good works.
As far as repentance goes, that means to simply change your mind about Christ and about dead works. Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
Metanoia - repentance, means to change your mind. To repent means to change your mind about Christ. You didn't believe in Him, and then you heard the gospel and believed in Him. You repented. It does not mean to feel sorry about sin and promise God that you will never sin again. That is a promise that you cannot keep.
Verna, Scripture states that Jesus Christ died once for all. Jesus said that the work of salvation has been completed. You can do nothing to earn eternal life. It is offered only as a free gift which is taken possession of by simply trusting in Christ for it. Once you are saved through faith alone in Christ alone you are then in a position to start growing spiritually and producing good works.
........
.................says the one who also says that one cannot lose their salvation either..........
I would state that "faith is a free gift" and if one is chosen by God to be believing then God gives them the faith to believe.
Just as "the grass receives the rain" (it does not make a choice to receive it) thus those who are called and chosen "receive Christ."
Then salvation is utterly arbitrary. Either God will choose us or he will not. Nothing we do, want, think, believe, read, or say will influence our faith at all. If we are chosen, we will have no agency, and will basically be forced into salvation.
If it's non-meritorious then there would not be a desirable recompense specifically for faith. You're nakedly asserting that faith doesn't count as a requirement when it absolutely and obviously does.
Quite to the contrary. I have said that faith is the only requirement to take possession of eternal life. Faith being non-meritorius means that man can take no credit for believing in Christ. Man can only trust in the finished work of Christ on the cross for eternal salvation.
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If faith is required, then faith is a requirement. If it's a requirement, then one must meet the requirement for the recompense. If one must meet the requirement, the recompense is earned by the one who meets the requirement.
Again, I have already said that faith is a requirement, the ONLY requirement for eternal life.
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3] For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited (imputed) to him as righteousness." 4] Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5] But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited (imputed) as righteousness,
God does not owe man anything and therefore man cannot earn salvation by working for it. Futhermore, there is no amount of work that a man could do to convert his relative human righteousness into the perfect absolute righteousness which God requires of those who would spend eternity in the presence of God. Therefore, when a person simply trusts in Christ, God imputes His very own righteousness to the one who has believed.
I've already shown you the following verses.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Your salvation is not of yourself. You cannot earn it. It is a gift from God which is appropriated through faith alone in Christ alone.
Quote:
So you're insisting faith is arbitrary. That's fine, you just have to acknowledge that it means nothing anyone says, does, believes, eats, etc., has anything at all to do with their eternal welfare. Evangelism, going to church, etc., are all a complete and utter waste of time. We either get saved by that great roll of the dice in the sky or we do not, and nothing we do will influence it one way or another. If that's your soteriology then own it, but don't pretend that there can be a requirement that humans must meet that doesn't actually count as a requirement. At least have the good sense to insist that God forces a person to have faith. That maintains the arbitrary nature of salvation and lets you get away with saying one must have faith. It's quite a silly soteriology, though.
Faith is not arbitrary. Faith is necessary in order to have eternal life. But God does not force faith on anyone. Faith is a requirement for eternal salvation, but whether you place your faith in Christ in response to the gospel is your choice.
To have faith in Christ for eternal life means that having recognized that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He died for your sins, you put the full weight of your trust - confidence - faith on Christ.
God cannot arbitrarily save anyone who does not respond to the gospel by placing their faith in Christ. God requires a volitional decision from man to respond to the gospel and trust in Christ because man's volition is the most basic issue in the spiritual warfare of the angelic conflict. The Scriptures also say that faith is not works and that man can take no credit for trusting in Christ.
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So God cannot save someone who does not choose to put their trust in Jesus, but he will save everyone who decides to put their trust in Jesus?
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (the command to believe in Christ) the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
John 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
John 7:37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38] "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"
You can choose to come to Christ by believing in/on Him, or you can choose to not come to Him for life.
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That means the proximate cause of salvation is each person's personal decision. It also means that decision earns one salvation, making it merited. It is simply a logical contradiction to insist that there's nothing we can do to be saved, but that there's something we can do to be saved. Fundamentalists have too long ignored this flagrant fallacy.
You have already been shown some verses which show that you must believe in Jesus Christ for eternal life, and that faith is distinquished from works and is therefore not meritorious.
You do not earn salvation by placing your faith in Christ, you simply acknowledge what Christ did on your behalf and accept the invitation to come to Christ for eternal life.
To believe in/on Christ simply means to trust in the finished work of Christ on the cross. Trust is non-meritorus which means that you cannot take any credit for your salvation. The credit goes to Jesus who did all the work for your salvation.
If you do not simply trust in Christ alone for eternal life then you remain under condemnation.
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