Could a "Loving God" Actually Say Something This Callous? (Holy Spirit, Christ)
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sorry you don't believe it's Jesus words, but it really is. Jesus wasn't JUST referring to the "jews who denouced him". his words applies to us today as well. and it doesn't matter if we " gave to the poor and help out those in distress and preach your word." it's also about how we choose to live our lives, if we're FOLLOWING his teachings....TOTALLY ,to the best of our ability. many who claim to do those things, are ALSO fornicators, adulterers, homosexuals, lovers of the world. refusing to change their old ways of living and thinking ,(James4:4 1John2:15,16 and 1Pet.1:14).
many of those same ones who's saying "lord,lord" are the ones who really think they can straddle the fence. also many refuse to acknowledge Jesus isn't the Father, or the Almighty God, (1John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not). Jehovah God loves all as his son does, but that doesn't mean his Father is just going to allow many to play him stupid, (Gal.6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap).
any who believe Jesus is being "callous" obviously don't know Jesus is also like his Father, he's not about dealing with those who's riding the fence. many of us ,(if we live up to the end), WILL be crying "Lord, Lord". and many will be wishing for the mountains to fallon us. than to see Jesus FATHER'S anger! ,([SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3]Luke [/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]23:30 and Rev. 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb). so like it or not, those WAS Jesus word. peace
jojo...clean this up ([SIZE=3][SIZE=3]...etc...etc...ect...) !
You have told me nothing Verna. You are so close to the truth and yet so far from it, you are mistaking the shadow for the real thing. The real thing is not the rock over the well( the veil), but the water in the well.
And the sting of death is sin. He who knew no sin became sin for us, that we may become the righteousness of God in him.This notion that Jesus stood in the way of a direct hit from God's wrath meant for us is ludicrous. God would be destroying himself if he was out to destroy us. God condemned sin( missing the mark) in the flesh not the sinner( those missing the mark).
He took the sting out of death by condemning sin not the sinner. Destroying sin not the sinner.
You're avoiding the issue. Your claim is that Jesus did not die a substitutionary death for mankind. Heb. 2:9 plainly says otherwise. So does Heb. 10:10.
Everyone is born already condemned. Every PERSON is born already under condemnation (John 3:18). You have absolutely no concept of why Christ had to become a man and go to the cross. The penalty for sin is death. Spiritual death. Physical death is a consequence of spiritual death. Spiritual death means no relationship with God in time. When a person dies never having trusted Christ for salvation he remains spiritually dead forever. The second death in the lake of fire is spiritual death perpetuated forever. It was Jesus' spiritual death on the cross from 12 Noon to 3 PM which paid the penalty for man's sins. It was during those 3 hours that God the Father judged the sins of the world which Jesus bore in His body. Jesus then dismissed His spirit from His body and died physically so that His body could be resurrected. Jesus' mortal body could not have gone into heaven.
Had Jesus not gone to the cross there would have been no salvation for man. But because He did go to the cross salvation is available to those who believe in Christ for eternal life.
It is your insinuation that there is a notion that God is out to destroy us that is ludicrous. The word of God plainly states that God has no desire that any should perish. 2 Pet. 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. But those who will not come to Christ will indeed perish. John 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
Jesus Christ paid the penalty for sin that man could never pay so that those who come to Him for salvation will not have to spend the eternal future in the lake of fire in torment, but can have eternal life.
[color=RoyalBlue]I know God to the extent that He has chosen to reveal himself to me. The same is true for every other person. We are completely dependent on Him to reveal himself to us whenever and however he chooses. That is why the scripture says you have no need that ANY MAN should teach you. And if you have no need that any man should teach you, it follows that you/we have no business going around trying to teach others spiritual things.
I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ
to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man. Galatians 1
God reveals His Son in us to us and it is the revealed Son we share with the world. You are right Heartsong the anointing reveals His Son in us to us.
2 Timothy 4:2Preach the word and stand with diligence, in season and out of season; reprove and rebuke with all long-suffering and teaching.
1 Corinthians 4: 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
No, in our place means substituting us.i have not changed my view nor am i back tracking .It is not scriptural. There is not one a scripture that even suggests he died in our place, you just think it is saying that.
Be man enough to quote 1 single scripture that Christ died in our place .
Like Lanyon said ..... We have wandered into a far land,full of strange doctrines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
Mark 10:45
45 "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
2 Cor. 5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Galatians 3:13
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
What did He say thereafter? Depart from me, I never knew you.
Because the "works" were not done in His name. IN LOVE.
God is Love.
The "works" were not done IN love.
Again think of the person having compassion for another and showing them love and mercy from the selfless love that is in their hearts -- This is done in God's name. This is done in LOVE.
Then there is a person who is doing things for others out of a selfishness in his heart, expecting "rewards in heaven" or what have you. --This is not love.
This verse has not a thing to do with some "eternal destiny"!
"Into the eternal fire". - GOD IS ETERNAL. GOD IS THE FIRE.
When the NON-LOVE within you is confronted FACE-to FACE with LOVE...
Do I need to go on and explain this picture?? Think about it.
WHAT is being destroyed? YOU? or the non-love within.
God is showing a very clear truth here. This verse is for our benefit so we will LEARN. It is helping us to SEE something that we NEED TO SEE. So many think they know God. But do they truly know Him? How can they truly know Him, know WHO He is if they blaspheme Him by telling others that He will torture them. Or banish them away forever. If that is what they believe, then they clearly do not know the very nature of God. who IS love.
God is love.
"DEPART FROM ME." is not callous in the least. It is loving instruction. It is said to cause the person to REFLECT on the motivations of their HEART. It is said to us TODAY even, as we read it in the bible as a GUIDE. When you read it and are CONVICTED in your own heart of your own selfish motivations.... it is teaching us TODAY and it will teach us in the future.
How would it be seen as callous? The ONLY way you could see it as being callous and NOT being said out of love... is if God were just snuffing out people like an old cigarette (annihilation) or the most ridiculous thing mankind has EVER imagined: throwing people into some endless, mindless, merciless torture pit. Which is, of course, a wicked, vile anti-christ notion.
GOD IS LOVE.
It is an IMPOSSIBILITY..... read that again.. an IMPOSSIBILITY for God to do anything that is not OUT of LOVE. GOD **IS** LOVE. When you view everything through the lens of "GOD IS LOVE" you will understand the seemingly harsh words. Instead of the wicked imaginations of MAN that dream up "destruction" as humans being tortured mercilessly, endlessly you will see "destruction" in the correct way... those things within us (non-love) that are being DESTROYED. You can see many things TWO ways, in a loving way or in a non-loving (NON-GOD) way... When you view something in a non-God (non-loving) way... you will see all manner of disgustingness. The imagination knows no bounds.
Start looking at things through a GODLY (LOVE) way. And see what that does to your understanding and confusion. God is not the author of confusion. LOVE is not the author of confusion. think about that.
peace,
sparrow
Hi Sparrow, it's always a pleasure to hear what you have to share. I think the main reason why people can't hear you is because they continue to believe that the enemy is "the other" and also refuse to look for the son/Christ in everyone. You can't expect to go around condemning others and excusing yourself - it will never be allowed. There are plenty of scriptures that teach that whosoever withholds God's grace and mercy cuts himself off from the same. That is because we are all God's and to disrespect what God has made clean is unpardonable (until that person repents of doing it).
Psalm 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
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1 John 2:9 English Standard Version
Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness.
The penal substitution or atonement appeasers all believe in a wrathful God who would actually care so much about our ancestors' eating of a fruit in disobedience that He would condemn our entire species to eternal hellfire or annihilation. Of course, they had just been created and were immature and weak in Spirit . . . so He knew they would eat the fruit before He forbid it . . . but He is so egotistical and irrational that He condemned them and everyone of us since anyway. He then demanded that His Son be tortured and crucified to pay for our disobedience to satisfy some warped, twisted and completely incomprehensible justice. Ostensibly this is so it would not be necessary for us to be tormented in eternal hellfire or suffer annihilation . . . except it somehow isn't enough. We have to force ourselves to believe a bunch of improbable and contradictory "precepts and doctrines of men" or we aren't qualified to be saved from those consequences. Sorry . . . if you can believe that . . . rationality is definitely not your strong suit.
Pcamps is right. Christ came out of love to correct the savage and primitive beliefs and superstitions about God that plagued our ancestors and prevented them from achieving agape love. They remained largely savages. Christ came in human form to achieve the proper state of mind (Agape love) in a human consciousness so it would be perfectly identical to God's consciousness. He taught and displayed God's true nature (Agape love) to our savage ancestors and reaped the only consequence possible from those savage primitives . . . scourging and crucifixion. God and Jesus knew what our barbaric ancestors would do to Him because of His message of love . . . but Jesus was willing to endure it in perfect love for us ALL . . . proving to us that God truly is a loving (not smiting) God
(Forgive them Father, they know not what they do).
Christ's death also produced another important thing for us. His death and rebirth (resurrection) as Spirit made His Holy Spirit available to us all in our human consciousness as the Comforter. Thus Christ now abides within us all to teach and guide us to what God has "written in our hearts" . . . just as God's Holy Spirit did for Jesus (the "Father has taught me," etc.). We are ALL saved because all human consciousness is connected to God's consciousness by the human consciousness of Christ. It is in that manner that He is the ONLY Way to God. No other consciousness is identical to God's . . . ONLY Christ's.
Fantastic post, Mystic. It will take our death (the death of Adam's body) to rip the veil from people's eyes. That is the purpose of death. Even something as awful as death has a Holy purpose.
Romans 7
World English Bible 1 Or don't you know, brothers (for I speak to men who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man for as long as he lives?
2For the woman that has a husband is bound by law to the husband while he lives, but if the husband dies, she is discharged from the law of the husband.
3So then if, while the husband lives, she is joined to another man, she would be called an adulteress. But if the husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is no adulteress, though she is joined to another man.
4Therefore, my brothers, you also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you would be joined to another, to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit to God.
5For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were through the law, worked in our members to bring forth fruit to death.
6But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that in which we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.
7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? May it never be! However, I wouldn't have known sin, except through the law. For I wouldn't have known coveting, unless the law had said, "You shall not covet."
8But sin, finding occasion through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of coveting. For apart from the law, sin is dead.
9 I was alive apart from the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10The commandment, which was for life, this I found to be for death;
11for sin, finding occasion through the commandment, deceived me, and through it killed me.
12 Therefore the law indeed is holy, and the commandment holy, and righteous, and good.
13 Did then that which is good become death to me? May it never be! But sin, that it might be shown to be sin, by working death to me through that which is good; that through the commandment sin might become exceeding sinful.
14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold under sin.
15For I don't know what I am doing. For I don't practice what I desire to do; but what I hate, that I do.
16 But if what I don't desire, that I do, I consent to the law that it is good.
17 So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwells in me.
18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwells no good thing. For desire is present with me, but I don't find it doing that which is good.
19 For the good which I desire, I don't do; but the evil which I don't desire, that I practice.
20 But if what I don't desire, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the law, that, to me, while I desire to do good, evil is present.
22 For I delight in God's law after the inward man,
23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will deliver me out of the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ, our Lord! So then with the mind, I myself serve God's law, but with the flesh, the sin's law.
Your claim is that Jesus did not die a substitutionary death for mankind.
Scapegoating is insidious; it's an enemy of livestock.
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...see....I told you.