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Old 08-24-2012, 10:27 AM
 
6,824 posts, read 4,874,288 times
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Matthew 24 is often used by folks that believe a post "tribulation" harpazo/"caught up".

Matthew 24:31


And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Isaiah 11 confirms that the Lord Jesus is talking about Judah.


Isaiah 11:12

And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.


Isaiah 27:12-13

12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.

13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem.


The highly debated topic of the Rapture has caused division in the Christian body. This is one of the popular passages to support the post Rapture position, but the Word of God says it is talking about Judah not the Gentiles.


Some scriptural support for the gathering/Rapture..

John 14:1-3

King James Version (KJV)

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself
; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Isaiah 26

19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.


Zephaniah 2:3

3 Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord's anger.

1 Thessalonians 5:8-10

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


The wrath of God starts in Revelation 6:16

Revelation 6:16

And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

There may be tribulation as in testing our faith, but God has not appointed the Church unto Wrath.

The fifth seal in which those holding the testimony of Jesus Christ are executed happens prior to Revelation 6:16 in Revelation 6:9.

Revelation 6:9

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

There is good scriptural support that the "24 elders" represent the "Church".

Revelation 5

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

From every kindred, tongue, people, and nation sounds like Gentiles.

The elders are different than those executed in the 5th seal.

Revelation 7:12-14

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Those beheaded at the fifth seal look to those that become believers after the Rapture.

This doesn't mean the Church won't be tested however.

Last edited by Mikelee81; 08-24-2012 at 10:39 AM..
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Old 08-24-2012, 12:08 PM
 
20,304 posts, read 15,661,748 times
Reputation: 7422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikelee81 View Post
Matthew 24 is often used by folks that believe a post "tribulation" harpazo/"caught up".

Matthew 24:31


And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Isaiah 11 confirms that the Lord Jesus is talking about Judah.


Isaiah 11:12

And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.


Isaiah 27:12-13

12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.

13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem.


The highly debated topic of the Rapture has caused division in the Christian body. This is one of the popular passages to support the post Rapture position, but the Word of God says it is talking about Judah not the Gentiles.


Some scriptural support for the gathering/Rapture..

John 14:1-3

King James Version (KJV)

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself
; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Isaiah 26

19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.


Zephaniah 2:3

3 Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord's anger.

1 Thessalonians 5:8-10

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


The wrath of God starts in Revelation 6:16

Revelation 6:16

And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

There may be tribulation as in testing our faith, but God has not appointed the Church unto Wrath.

The fifth seal in which those holding the testimony of Jesus Christ are executed happens prior to Revelation 6:16 in Revelation 6:9.

Revelation 6:9

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

There is good scriptural support that the "24 elders" represent the "Church".

Revelation 5

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

From every kindred, tongue, people, and nation sounds like Gentiles.

The elders are different than those executed in the 5th seal.

Revelation 7:12-14

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Those beheaded at the fifth seal look to those that become believers after the Rapture.

This doesn't mean the Church won't be tested however.
Good post Mike. Yes, while the Church faces tribulation while she is on this earth, the Church will not go though the 7 year Tribulational period which is the remaining 7 years of the age of Israel which was interrupted for the dispensation of the Church which is an intercalation. God has different and separate programs for the Church and Israel. The Tribulation is judgment on Israel and the unbelieving Gentile nations. The Church by definition is neither one.

John 14:1-3 is a good rapture passage, and Matthew 24:31 is indeed about the regathering of the Jews to the land in belief when Jesus Christ returns at the end of the Tribulation. The first phase of that regathering (in unbelief) has been going on since the end of the 19th century. There has to be a significent number of Jews in the land before the Tribulation begins.

Two good markers which place the rapture of the Church prior to the Tribulation are;

1.) The Tribulation will begin with the signing of a peace treaty or covenent with Israel by the antichrist as per Dan. 9:27. But the antichrist cannot be revealed until the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit is removed as per 2 Thess. 2:6-9. The restraining influence of the Holy Spirit has to do with His indwelling presence in the Church-age believer. Therefore the Church must be removed from the earth before the antichrist can be revealed and before the Tribulation can begin.

2.) The Book of Revelation itself. Rev. 1:19 gives a general outline of the Book of Revelation.

Rev. 1:19 "Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.

'The things which you have seen' refers to the things which John saw and which were described in Revelation chapter one.

'The things which are' refer to the seven Churches of what was then the Roman province of Asia and which is now modern Turkey. These seven Churches represent the different kinds of Churches and the trends of Churches throughout the present Church-age. This is covered in Revelation chapters two and three.

'And the things which will take place after these things.' refer to the events which will occur after the present Church-age. Those events include the Tribulation, the return of Christ at the end of the Tribulation, the Millennium, the great white throne judgment, and the eternal state. These events are covered in chapters four through twenty two.

Additionally, there is no mention of the Church after chapter three until chapter nineteen where the church is referred to as the bride. And as you said, although not much is said of the 24 Elders, the best explanation
is that they represent the resurrected Church in heaven. There is Scriptural support for that view.

So the Book of Revelation places the rapture of the Church before the Tribulation.

Last edited by Mike555; 08-24-2012 at 12:25 PM..
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Old 08-24-2012, 02:14 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,819,724 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikelee81 View Post

The highly debated topic of the Rapture has caused division in the Christian body. This is one of the popular passages to support the post Rapture position, but the Word of God says it is talking about Judah not the Gentiles.


Some scriptural support for the gathering/Rapture...
This is the scritural support for the rapture
1 Thessalonians 4:17
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

the debate come from the reformed community that claims that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is a seperate event from the the only second return of the Lord.


By doing so, the reformed theology does several things:
  1. has a multiple returns of Jesus
  2. has multiple ressurections of the dead
  3. attempts to predict the end of the world (knowingly so or not)
  4. mis-reads the purpose and meaning of Revelation
A: The Milleniumist's rapture occures (whenever)
+
B: The Milleniumist's 7 year trib ....... (whenever + 7)
+
C: The Milleniumist's 1000 year reign number....... ( whenever + 7 + 1000 number)
=
The predicted year of Jesus' return when "whenever" occures
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Old 08-24-2012, 03:26 PM
 
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twin.spin I'm not sure what the "reformed community" is, but it doesn't represent the "pre-tribulation" rapture perspective that I'm aware of.

"Pre tribulation" is considered by many as technically pre "70th week of Daniel" (Daniel 9:27).

Here's a very detailed exegesis of it


Chuck Missler: The Rapture Part 1 of 12 - YouTube

You're right that there is two returns of Christ which includes one for the gathering of the church and one for the day of his return, but there is good scriptural basis for this.

The "Millennialist" rapture must come pre-Millenial as the Millennium initiates the reign of Jesus Christ's Kingdom on Earth.

There are two resurrections of the dead - one prior to the Millennium and one after the Millennium at the Great White Throne. How could the redeemed reign with Christ a 1000 years if this was not the case?

Maybe you'd benefit from checking out the exposition above to get a better perspective of the "pre-tribulation" perspective. I'm not sure if this is different than the reformed community.

Last edited by Mikelee81; 08-24-2012 at 03:49 PM..
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Old 08-24-2012, 05:09 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,819,724 times
Reputation: 1302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikelee81 View Post
twin.spin I'm not sure what the "reformed community" is, but it doesn't represent the "pre-tribulation" rapture perspective that I'm aware of.


You're right that there is two returns of Christ which includes one for the gathering of the church and one for the day of his return, but there is good scriptural basis for this.

The "Millennialist" rapture must come pre-Millenial as the Millennium initiates the reign of Jesus Christ's Kingdom on Earth.

There are two resurrections of the dead - one prior to the Millennium and one after the Millennium at the Great White Throne. How could the redeemed reign with Christ a 1000 years if this was not the case?

Maybe you'd benefit from checking out the exposition above to get a better perspective of the "pre-tribulation" perspective. I'm not sure if this is different than the reformed community.
My point of mentioning of the two returns \ ressurections was meant to be understood that such opinions are in contrary to scriptures. Scripture teaches Amillennialism

Heaven will only be found in heaven where God dwells, Jesus will not have an earthly rule because his kingdom is not of this world. When Jesus comes, it will be only to be the judge of all .. living and dead. Matthew 25:31-46
And then God will dwell with all who professed the true faith.

The 1000 yr reign of Rev is symbolic. Just as the discriptions of Jesus are, the descriptions of Satan are, just as the 144,000 number of believers that John witnessed in heaven are.
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Old 08-24-2012, 06:58 PM
 
6,824 posts, read 4,874,288 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
My point of mentioning of the two returns \ ressurections was meant to be understood that such opinions are in contrary to scriptures. Scripture teaches Amillennialism

Heaven will only be found in heaven where God dwells, Jesus will not have an earthly rule because his kingdom is not of this world. When Jesus comes, it will be only to be the judge of all .. living and dead. Matthew 25:31-46
And then God will dwell with all who professed the true faith.

The 1000 yr reign of Rev is symbolic. Just as the discriptions of Jesus are, the descriptions of Satan are, just as the 144,000 number of believers that John witnessed in heaven are.
I disagree that there is any justification to come to the belief that the Millennium is symbolic. The Scriptures say a lot about the Millennium Kingdom Reign of Jesus Christ on this earth on the throne of David (fulfilling the Davidic covenant which was promised in the OT, re-affirmed to Mary, and again re-affirmed to the Apostles).

The following passage is referring to the Millennial reign.

Isaiah 66

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Because when there is a "new heaven and a new earth" there is no sun and no darkness.

Revelation 21:21

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

..

Revelation 22

5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.


There are two resurrections.. one prior to the Mellenium and the Great White Throne after the Mellenium.


Revelation 20:4-6

King James Version (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Where is the Justification to allegorize all of this. The Scriptures talk about a clear Mellenium in which the first resurrection (in which the second death has no power) happens prior to it.

The Lord Jesus even talks about the first resurrection.

John 5:25
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

When you are called by name by the Lord in the first resurrection it is not at the Great White Throne.

The Great White Throne is for unbelievers

Revelation 20


11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Understanding the two resurrections are important not only to help with the Rapture issue, but Soteriology.

Justification before the throne of God is 100 percent independent of our Works and 100 percent dependent upon the sacrifice of Christ, but that's for another thread.

Where is the justification to claim that Amellinial perspective is accurate? So many denominations have ascribed to this perspective and it is so far off of what the Bible clearly says.


Jesus Christ will rule on the Throne of David as was promised.

Isaiah 9:6-8

King James Version (KJV)

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.


Luke 1:32
He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Why are people so willing to allegorize the entire Bible?
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Old 08-26-2012, 02:13 PM
 
5,496 posts, read 4,405,793 times
Reputation: 1802
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikelee81 View Post
Matthew 24 is often used by folks that believe a post "tribulation" harpazo/"caught up".

Matthew 24:31

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Isaiah 11 confirms that the Lord Jesus is talking about Judah.


Isaiah 11:12

And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.


Isaiah 27:12-13

12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.

13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem.


The highly debated topic of the Rapture has caused division in the Christian body. This is one of the popular passages to support the post Rapture position, but the Word of God says it is talking about Judah not the Gentiles.


Some scriptural support for the gathering/Rapture..

John 14:1-3

King James Version (KJV)

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Isaiah 26

19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.


Zephaniah 2:3

3 Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord's anger.

1 Thessalonians 5:8-10

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


The wrath of God starts in Revelation 6:16

Revelation 6:16

And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

There may be tribulation as in testing our faith, but God has not appointed the Church unto Wrath.

The fifth seal in which those holding the testimony of Jesus Christ are executed happens prior to Revelation 6:16 in Revelation 6:9.

Revelation 6:9

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

There is good scriptural support that the "24 elders" represent the "Church".

Revelation 5

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

From every kindred, tongue, people, and nation sounds like Gentiles.

The elders are different than those executed in the 5th seal.

Revelation 7:12-14

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Those beheaded at the fifth seal look to those that become believers after the Rapture.

This doesn't mean the Church won't be tested however.
You just made a great case, with those verses, for the post-trib rapture/resurrection.
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:17 AM
 
910 posts, read 1,044,114 times
Reputation: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikelee81 View Post
Matthew 24 is often used by folks that believe a post "tribulation" harpazo/"caught up".

Matthew 24:31


And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Isaiah 11 confirms that the Lord Jesus is talking about Judah.


Isaiah 11:12

And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.


Isaiah 27:12-13

12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.

13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem.


The highly debated topic of the Rapture has caused division in the Christian body. This is one of the popular passages to support the post Rapture position, but the Word of God says it is talking about Judah not the Gentiles.


Some scriptural support for the gathering/Rapture..

John 14:1-3

King James Version (KJV)

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself
; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Isaiah 26

19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.


Zephaniah 2:3

3 Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord's anger.

1 Thessalonians 5:8-10

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


The wrath of God starts in Revelation 6:16

Revelation 6:16

And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

There may be tribulation as in testing our faith, but God has not appointed the Church unto Wrath.

The fifth seal in which those holding the testimony of Jesus Christ are executed happens prior to Revelation 6:16 in Revelation 6:9.

Revelation 6:9

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

There is good scriptural support that the "24 elders" represent the "Church".

Revelation 5

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

From every kindred, tongue, people, and nation sounds like Gentiles.

The elders are different than those executed in the 5th seal.

Revelation 7:12-14

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Those beheaded at the fifth seal look to those that become believers after the Rapture.

This doesn't mean the Church won't be tested however.
We know in part, but when the perfect comes, we shall...

What sense is there in Christ coming back several times? Why do we reason things in our way. The ways of man is different from the ways of God. Did Christ tell us he was coming back several times? if he didn't then any scripture that implies that should be looked at critically to understand the full meaning.

The 1000 year reign of Christ was accomplished already in heaven. As soon as he ascended, the had said " all powers in heaven and on earth have been given unto me..." he started ruling from that time till his second coming. In his second coming he will rule physically on earth. Capish?
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:33 AM
 
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2THESS 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

MT 24:28-30 "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:48 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
We know in part, but when the perfect comes, we shall...

What sense is there in Christ coming back several times? Why do we reason things in our way. The ways of man is different from the ways of God. Did Christ tell us he was coming back several times? if he didn't then any scripture that implies that should be looked at critically to understand the full meaning.

The 1000 year reign of Christ was accomplished already in heaven. As soon as he ascended, the had said " all powers in heaven and on earth have been given unto me..." he started ruling from that time till his second coming. In his second coming he will rule physically on earth. Capish?
There is ZERO Scripture to support your claim or provide rebuttal for the Scripture I provided.

God said Messiah was going to return and reign on the Throne of his father David.

People that do not believe this are calling God a liar.

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

No one is living and reigning with Christ yet. This is yet future event when Jesus Christ is literally on Earth in the literal Millennial Kingdom. Any other conclusion is a poor one that's based not on the Scripture but allegorical speculation.


Revelation 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

There are two resurrections, one for the living and one for the dead. The living are the redeemed. They are resurrected prior to the Millennial Reign. The first resurrection has not happened yet. It's the only logical conclusion.

This is what it says happens after the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Revelation 20:7

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

To come to the conclusion that Satan has been chained a thousand years is to come to the conclusion that mankind has had 1000 years of peace under the reign of Jesus Christ.


Was from the resurrection of Jesus Christ to a 1000 years later blessed with a time of the absolute peace that the Scriptures talk about of the Millennial reign? No. There was Wars, Stealing, Rapes, etc just as in every time.

To come to the position that the Millennial reign has been accomplished is a POOR conclusion. People that believe this, do not believe what the Bible clearly says.

As for the Harpazo, yes Jesus does say he will come again and receive believers unto himself as was pointed out in the beginning.

It's difficult to come with the saints if they are already there at his arrival.
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