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God is all powerful...yet he choose our own mistakes?
I am confused..well, not confused....but I think there is a mixture.
God and man. Obviously, one has the almighty Power of Big Bang Creation.
We, thankfully, have not developed that yet.
But...agree? Synergy?
There must be some 'synergy' of God's power over our lives...
over 'everything'....and our own free will?
Otherwise, why would some of us end up in ...Hell?
God is all powerful...yet he choose our own mistakes?
I am confused..well, not confused....but I think there is a mixture.
God and man. Obviously, one has the almighty Power of Big Bang Creation.
We, thankfully, have not developed that yet.
But...agree? Synergy?
There must be some 'synergy' of God's power over our lives...
over 'everything'....and our own free will?
Otherwise, why would some of us end up in ...Hell?
Or, are we there already?
It was God's pleasure and sovereign decision to give man volition for the purpose of using that volition to come to Him in response to the gospel, or to resist the drawing of God and remain under condemnation. Man's volition is possible because God refrains from exerting His sovereignty in order to allow man to make decisions which are contrary to God's desires. God wants man to freely come to Him. He does not want to force man into a relationship with Him that man does not want. Therefore, God respects man's choice. Those who do not wish to spend eternity with God will spend eternity apart from any relationship with God. Their eternal abode will be in the place that the Bible calls the lake of fire. And those who wish to come to Jesus Christ in response to God's gospel invitation will be in the presence of God forever.
As for the choices man makes in general with regard to life, decisions have consequences. Bad decisions usually result in bad consequences. Mistakes can have disastrous results, or results that are not so bad.
Your choices, your decisions, your mistakes are your own. Not God's. But God allows you to make those choices and mistakes.
God's plan advances as He sovreignly wills it to, while allowing man's volition to function. Man's volition does not hinder the fulfillment of God's plan and purpose. In human history, the sovereignty of God and man's volition coexist.
Last edited by Michael Way; 11-04-2012 at 09:48 AM..
God is all powerful...yet he choose our own mistakes?
I am confused..well, not confused....but I think there is a mixture.
God and man. Obviously, one has the almighty Power of Big Bang Creation.
We, thankfully, have not developed that yet.
But...agree? Synergy?
There must be some 'synergy' of God's power over our lives...
over 'everything'....and our own free will?
Otherwise, why would some of us end up in ...Hell?
Or, are we there already?
God in us ... that is the synergy.
God puts no one into the mythical after-life hell that mainstream Christianity preaches, Face.
Hell is a state of mind. It's the feelings we have of separation from the God who, in reality, we are a part of. It's the feelings of being condemned by a God who, in reality, loves us all unconditionally. As we think in our heart, so we are. When we are believing the lies about being separated and condemned, then we experience hell and behave in hellish ways. When we are believing that we are not separated from God and that His love abides with us and within us, then we become a part of the heaven we yearn for, and we exhibit it to others.
God puts no one into the mythical after-life hell that mainstream Christianity preaches, Face.
Hell is a state of mind. It's the feelings we have of separation from the God who, in reality, we are a part of. It's the feelings of being condemned by a God who, in reality, loves us all unconditionally. As we think in our heart, so we are. When we are believing the lies about being separated and condemned, then we experience hell and behave in hellish ways. When we are believing that we are not separated from God and that His love abides with us and within us, then we become a part of the heaven we yearn for, and we exhibit it to others.
2 Thess. 1:6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7] and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8] dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus9]These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 46] "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Rev. 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Matthew 10:28 (Jesus speaking) "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna, which refers to the lake of fire. The name Gehenna which is the name of the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem came to represent the lake of fire).
Who shall man believe Pleroo? You??? Or the word of God???
As for myself, I choose to believe the word of God!!!
God puts no one into the mythical after-life hell that mainstream Christianity preaches, Face.
Hell is a state of mind. It's the feelings we have of separation from the God who, in reality, we are a part of. It's the feelings of being condemned by a God who, in reality, loves us all unconditionally. As we think in our heart, so we are. When we are believing the lies about being separated and condemned, then we experience hell and behave in hellish ways. When we are believing that we are not separated from God and that His love abides with us and within us, then we become a part of the heaven we yearn for, and we exhibit it to others.
Amen, Pleroo. Christ abides with us and His Holy Spirit guides us to the truth of love that God has "written in our hearts." We need no man (or any "precepts and doctrines of men") to teach us. God IS love and all who love are born of God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
2 Thess. 1:6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7] and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8] dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus9]These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Desire for vengeance is entirely human . . . born of the imperfection of human love and our weaknesses. WE will punish ourselves once the pure love of God shines on our lives and transforms us with remorse and regret (weeping and gnashing of teeth) for what we cannot UNDO . . . whether in deliberate selfishness or ignorance.
Quote:
Who shall man believe Pleroo? You??? Or the word of God???
Quote:
As for myself, I choose to believe the word of God!!!
We believe Christ the living Word of God . . . and the power of God's love to transform ALL of us eventually (whether pre or post death). You apparently believe the "precepts and doctrines of men" "written in ink," deny the power of God and ignore what God has "written in our hearts."
Amen, Pleroo. Christ abides with us and His Holy Spirit guides us to the truth of love that God has "written in our hearts." We need no man (or any "precepts and doctrines of men") to teach us. God IS love and all who love are born of God.
Desire for vengeance is entirely human . . . born of the imperfection of human love and our weaknesses. WE will punish ourselves once the pure love of God shines on our lives and transforms us with remorse and regret (weeping and gnashing of teeth) for what we cannot UNDO . . . whether in deliberate selfishness or ignorance.
We believe Christ the living Word of God . . . and the power of God's love to transform ALL of us eventually (whether pre or post death). You apparently believe the "precepts and doctrines of men" "written in ink," deny the power of God and ignore what God has "written in our hearts."
All who are in rebellion against God's revealed word are in rebellion against God and do not love God. You deceive yourself to think otherwise.
You yank out of context, the phrase from 1 John 2:27 'and you have no need for anyone to teach you,' and use it to justify ignoring those parts of the word of God that you don't like. What God has wriitten in our hearts pertains to matters of conscience. That is no substitute for what God has communicated in His written word.
Do not expect me to waste my time going back and forth arguing with you.
Last edited by Michael Way; 11-04-2012 at 01:25 PM..
Who shall man believe Pleroo? You??? Or the word of God???
As for myself, I choose to believe the word of God!!!
None of the passages you posted are at odds with the understanding that no one will be left "in hell". All of this has been explained countless times on this forum, as I'm sure you know. Since you've made it clear in your post to Mystic that you have no intent to discuss or try to understand anything but your own current understanding, I will leave it at that.
The intent of my post was to share with Face what I believe about the synergy of God and humanity: God who is love is IN us, and we are in God. To me, there is no more powerful and empowering truth than this. There is no room whatsoever within that belief, as I see it, to be fearful that God might fail any of us.
It was God's pleasure and sovereign decision to give man volition...
Psa 33:10 The LORD bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought: he maketh the devices of the people of none effect.
Pro 19:21 There are many devices in a man’s heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD , that shall stand.
Quote:
...for the purpose of using that volition to come to Him...
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Quote:
...or to resist the drawing of God and remain under condemnation...
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Quote:
...Man's volition is possible because God refrains from exerting His sovereignty...
Pro 21:30 There is no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD .
Psa 33:11 The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Quote:
...in order to allow man to make decisions which are contrary to God's desires...
Pro 16:1 THE preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
Pro 16:9 A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
Quote:
...God wants man to freely come to Him...
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Quote:
...He does not want to force man into a relationship with Him...
Jer 10:23 O LORD , I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
Pro 20:24 Man’s goings are of the LORD ; how can a man then understand his own way?
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Quote:
...that man does not want. Therefore, God respects man's choice...
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Quote:
...Those who do not wish to spend eternity with God will spend eternity apart from any relationship with God.
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
Quote:
...Their eternal abode will be in the place that the Bible calls the lake of fire....
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Quote:
...In human history, the sovereignty of God and man's volition coexist...
Isa 40:17 All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
Psa 62:9 Surely men of low degree are vanity, and men of high degree are a lie: to be laid in the balance, they are altogether lighter than vanity.
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
None of the passages you posted are at odds with the understanding that no one will be left "in hell". All of this has been explained countless times on this forum, as I'm sure you know. Since you've made it clear in your post to Mystic that you have no intent to discuss or try to understand anything but your own current understanding, I will leave it at that.
The intent of my post was to share with Face what I believe about the synergy of God and humanity: God who is love is IN us, and we are in God. To me, there is no more powerful and empowering truth than this. There is no room whatsoever within that belief, as I see it, to be fearful that God might fail any of us.
The word of God in no way teaches that those who go into the lake of fire will be there only temporarily. Universalism is a lie which originated with Satan. Matthew 25:46 says eternal punishment, and it means exactly that. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 says eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord, and it means exactly that.
Psa 33:10 The LORD bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought: he maketh the devices of the people of none effect.
Pro 19:21 There are many devices in a man’s heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD , that shall stand.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Pro 21:30 There is no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD .
Psa 33:11 The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Pro 16:1 THE preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
Pro 16:9 A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Jer 10:23 O LORD , I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
Pro 20:24 Man’s goings are of the LORD ; how can a man then understand his own way?
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Isa 40:17 All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
Psa 62:9 Surely men of low degree are vanity, and men of high degree are a lie: to be laid in the balance, they are altogether lighter than vanity.
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Calvinists have a false understanding of the passages they use to deny the volition of man. The sovereignty of God and man's volition coexist in human history. Rev. 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
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