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Jesus Christ came to set us free from all that our alienated minds wrongly taught us God IS. The truth is the concept that most Christians have of God is not very differentl to the one they had when they were alienated from God in their minds.
We know that the carnal mind cannot understand the things of God, so if the concept of God we now have as believers,resembles the one before we believed, it does not take much to figure out what the roots of that concept are, and what's more the bible will always portray the concept of God we had of Him, before we believed,if the concept we have of God us of the carnal mind.
Trimac, as one who's been there done that, I'm telling you ... get the help or counseling you need FIRST, before you tackle these questions. Religious questions just mess with your head when you're someone who struggles with anxiety issues and thoughts of suicide. Anxiety FEEDS on those kinds of questions/thoughts, trust me. FIRST get the cognitive tools in place that will help you to master anxiety. Once you've done that, the questions you're asking can be addressed by you ... they still won't be easy or comfortable, but they will not destroy you as they seem to be doing now.
It may seem like the most important thing to have answers NOW, but whatever is true is true, and it's not going to change just because you're not in a good frame of mind to find the answers right now. It will still be waiting for you when you're ready to handle it.
Trimac, I fully agree with the above. Whatever your struggles, believe me, others have suffered similar or even worse and come through stronger and loving life. There are resources that can offer help at reduced or even no cost depending on your income. I got free counseling through the YWCA. It can be more difficult for a man due to the current economy but I'm sure there is some help out there. Try looking up county or state mental health agencies for a source. They usually start with antidepressants and that's ok, tho I despise them but they are helpful in some cases. I would push for verbal counselling at the same time though. Even just having someone to tell your concerns to helps. Get help as soon as possible. You deserve some peace and happiness.
I know I am going to be shot down for this, but you need to reject all christian doctrine,and everything else you have ever learned that portrays God in any other Light than God seeing you as the apple of His eye. You are free to do this,and you can do this if you really want to be free from all your fears for this life and beyond the grave. It's obvious what you are dwelling upon is killing you on the inside and robbing you of a life peace and joy which is yours to enjoy.
Jesus Christ came to set us free from all that our alienated minds wrongly taught us God IS. The truth is the concept that most Christians have of God is not very differentl to the one they had when they were alienated from God in their minds.
whatever is true, whatever is worthy of reverence and is honorable and seemly, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely and lovable, whatever is kind and winsome and gracious, if there is any virtue and excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think on and weigh and take account of these things [fix your minds on them].
Well if your looking at the world around you I can see why you would feel hopeless. As for the verse you quoted from Paul there is really nothing to it. He is correct. WE who are still alive when Christ returns will not proceed those who are already dead.
Just because the word "we" is used in this verse does not mean he was referring to specific individuals such as himself but to those of the group being referred to, ie; We Christians who are still alive". Your reading an English translation of Greek done at a time when people had some different common uses of words than some of us do today.
To think that Jesus taught He would return during the lifetime of those he was speaking to is a mis-interpretation of what was said as well. I remember being confused by such things at one point myself.
RESPONSE:
What Jesus, Paul, James, and Peter said is abundently clear. Lets not play lets pretend they didn't really mean what they clearly said.
But it just didn't happen.
“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there aresome of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.“ (Matthew 16: 27, 28)
“Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven….Truly I say to you, thisgeneration [Note: Not that generation] will not pass away until all these things take place…“ (Mark 13:26-30)
"But Jesus kept silent and the high priest said to Him, “I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.” Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter youwill see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.“” (Matthew 26: 63, 64)
“Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.” (1 Corinthians 10:11)
“…the coming of the Lord is near. …the Judge is standing right at the door.” (James 5:8, 9)
“The end of all things is near…” (1 Peter 4:7)
"For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Thenwe who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)
Last edited by ancient warrior; 11-02-2012 at 05:28 PM..
Reason: typo
What Jesus, Paul, James, and Peter said is abundently clear. Lets not play lets pretend they didn't really mean what they clearly said.
But it just didn't happen.
“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there aresome of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.“ (Matthew 16: 27, 28)
“Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven….Truly I say to you, thisgeneration [Note: Not that generation] will not pass away until all these things take place…“ (Mark 13:26-30)
"But Jesus kept silent and the high priest said to Him, “I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.†Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter youwill see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.“†(Matthew 26: 63, 64)
“Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.†(1 Corinthians 10:11)
“…the coming of the Lord is near. …the Judge is standing right at the door.†(James 5:8, 9)
“The end of all things is near…†(1 Peter 4:7)
"For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Thenwe who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.†(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)
There you go again. I guess I need to add you to the ignore list since you are not willing to listen to the truth and learn.
In all sincerity, I want to say this is something very confronting to me at the moment. It may not affect you, but it questions the very validity of what Jesus said in the gospels. So if you prefer not to examine, do not read on. It is extremely confronting to my faith at the moment, and i can honestly say I'm not sure if I believe anymore at all. I might not even believe, but a part of me is refusing to let go. i admit a part of it is the fear that has been drilled into me all these years, it makes me curse my birth and my upbringing at times. Also, I desperately want something more than this life. I find this life full of pain and misery, with nothing to look forward to, and I'd find the atheist scenario of nothing after this life equally nightmarish. It's no use to say 'enjoy this life' when I find the world an ugly, cold place. I don't want to admit this to my parents or anyone else, for fear they will be concerned for my soul that I might burn in hell for all eternity. Oh the joys of being raised in orthodox/fundamentalist Christianity...
I'm sure anyone familiar with the NT are familiar with all Jesus' 'second coming' prediction texts in all the gospels. I won't specify them all. It does indeed appear that Jesus predicted his soon return, unless you interpret it another way or interpret the 'coming' as another something different to the universal 'end of the age.' I've also heard the various explanations (you'd have to go into each verse). E.g. that it refers to the glorification of Jesus (I know there's a specific term but it escapes me), that generation is not a literal generation.etc. Doesn't the fact asked those he was speaking to AT THE TIME to watch out for the Lord's coming for the day and hour is unknown and it will come as a thief in the night.
Now up to this point, all I could do was go by the above explanations. The alternative, of course, was to admit that Jesus was simply wrong. C.S. Lewis was one who felt forced to accept this conclusion, but I never really felt comfortable with it. While the disciplines and early followers might have expected his soon return, I always thought perhaps they misinterpreted Jesus' words. This, I can only imagine, is the only other alternative. Now, however, it seems we have to put Paul in that category. Paul was supposedly inspired by God, so if he was mistaken, can we trust him?
Here's the verse in question:
4 Thessalonions 4:15-17
According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of the God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together in them in the in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
How do you argue away this passage? In the expositions about Jesus' apparent failed/unfulfilled prophecies about his second coming, I seldom see it raised. Does it not show that Paul believed in a liberal, physical return of Christ, and a physical resurrection in the lifetime of those he wrote to, the Church at Thessalonica? If so, Paul himself believed this, and there's no way to argue that generation doesn't mean 40 years, or that those standing here would not taste death before seeing the second coming.
The huge BUT, however is...if this was bleedingly obvious, how did Christianity continue after this? If Jesus' second coming was plainly unfulfilled, how did Christianity grow and thrive? Were the gospels freely available to all say after 150 AD? I know little about early Church history so it's all conjecture to me.
I'm trying to find some hope in Christianity because that's what I was brought up in. I desperately want there to be something more, but I guess I haven't investigated other faiths. There's not the same conviction or promises, i guess, in say Buddhist or New Age religion. I have extreme anxiety disorder, feel suicidal, and probably need counselling. I'm truly afraid I might not even make the end of the year. I'm not saying to get attention, God is my wittness I am really desperate right now . I've got a raging headache as i type this, feel like throwing up, can't sleep...it's an awful feeling. It feels my world is caving in. I don't know who I can turn to...when i asked my mother about this she said a lot about not asking questions, trust God, she even said maybe I have to find truth elsewhere, as if she was 'giving up' on me.
I hate this life and wish I'd never been born. Sorry this devolved into a rant. If Jesus' second coming was all false I feel so betrayed. I hope no one's faith is weakened by this post. I don't want to die. I wish so much that there's not a wrathful God up there, but I hope there's more. I hope I can get some rest or peace or else I think I'll go crazy with anxiety.
Can anyone at least put this doubt to rest for now, regarding what Paul is saying?
It's not just this, but I'm desperately trying to reconcile the Bible with logic and the world I see around me.
Someone has probably answered this already, but I'll speak on it again. The answer is, Paul was ready for Christ's coming in his day. Every Christian should be ready and expect Him to come. Yet as to what Jesus said, He said the generation that would see all the things He spoke of concerning the end times, that generation would not pass away until everything was fulfilled. It's only in today's generation, where we are seeing all of these things happening at one time. (Due to the media) Jesus also said that the Gospel would be preached to the whole world, and then the end would come. Was the Gospel preached to the whole world in Paul's day? People didn't even know North America and South America existed until the 1400s. Even then, the true message of the Gospel was compromised in the Dark Ages. (It started with Constatine) Only in today's age, is the true message of the Gospel is being preached throughout the whole world. (By that I mean salvation is based on what Jesus has done, not on what we can do for God. We just have to received it, and rest in it. That's all. This truth has been compromised for over a thousand years)
Basically, it's this generation, that all these things are happening. It's this generation where Jesus said if He doesn't come when He does, we would destroy ourselves. (Nuclear bombs, chemical warfare, etc.) Daniel said that people would travel to and fro about the earth, before the end would come. (Daniel 12: 4)
To sum up, yes Paul believed Jesus could come in his time, but that is the attitude of every Christian. That is a healthy expectation. Yet when we read Jesus words, it's only in this generation where everything is happening just like He said would be happening, just before He returned. Don't lose your hope.
I know I am going to be shot down for this, but you need to reject all christian doctrine,and everything else you have ever learned that portrays God in any other Light than God seeing you as the apple of His eye. You are free to do this,and you can do this if you really want to be free from all your fears for this life and beyond the grave. It's obvious what you are dwelling upon is killing you on the inside and robbing you of a life peace and joy which is yours to enjoy.
Jesus Christ came to set us free from all that our alienated minds wrongly taught us God IS. The truth is the concept that most Christians have of God is not very differentl to the one they had when they were alienated from God in their minds.
whatever is true, whatever is worthy of reverence and is honorable and seemly, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely and lovable, whatever is kind and winsome and gracious, if there is any virtue and excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think on and weigh and take account of these things [fix your minds on them].
Right on pcamps.
Again for emphasis:
Quote:
whatever is true, whatever is worthy of reverence and is honorable and seemly, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely and lovable, whatever is kind and winsome and gracious, if there is any virtue and excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think on and weigh and take account of these things [fix your minds on them]
Trimac 20 you need to realize your purpose in life is to uncover truth via exhaustive study . You are a frustrated believer and may need group study that may include a messanic in the mix. The church lacks the blessings and teachings that were abruptly tossed and forbidden by Constantine namely Jewish roots. That whole enchilada is a discussion for later. Let's delve into the chronology I believe has a Holy Spirit guided and scholarly fed timeline. Thre second coming is a totally separate event that is projected to occur after the 7 years of Tibulation. As a slight segway you Trimac will not enter Tribulation as it is judgement on Israel (non messanic unbelievers and unbelieving gentiles). Ok so what about the trumpet entry of Jesus and the gang? Jesus intially comes for His church in the AIR! He does not go lower than the clouds !!! We will be "caught up" to Him not vice versa . The dead (believers ) first THEN living and breathing belivers (the church)! It's not His second coming. The chronology continues as many enter 7 years of Trib and at the 3.5 year antichirst who was a bud of Israel desecrates the temple and claims to be God. His Islamic little demons then beheads those not accepting his rule and rejecting Jesus. Those martyred are then saved fullfilling their last chance evidence of faith (this really pleases God in ways we can't comprehend) As for those that acept the mark they will be judged by God (i'm not worthy but have a hunch that it isn't warm and fuzzy). Now toward the very end of Tribulation Jesus realizing Israel will be attacked by a number of Islamic neighboring muslim countries (10 I believe) are destroyed (again I believe by fire? The antichrist is fried and Jesus now does return (2nd coming) and sets up shop for His millennum reign for 1000 years (He bounds satan for 1000 years as well). Tromac who finds life on earth a hassle now is in a heavenly body and finds himself actively involved in the millennum using his knowledge and talents to witness to newbees . It willl be a glorious, painless, joyful time traveling within the new expanded borders of Israel. All the desert areas will be full of vegetation, Israel will flourish under Jesus and it will be close to utopian. Again chronologically now the 1000 years are over and satan is released ( I believe Jesus sets this up to destroy satan ) Satan then musters (slow to learn muslims) and the battle of Gog and Magog between Jesus and Satan's army and guess who wins ? ......Possibly with your help as a warrior Jesus destroys billions ( like the sand on the seashore.) Sometime later the earth is destroyed by fire (a prep for the new earth?) yeh!!! You reign with the Lord for eternity in heaven a place of unspeakable joy (that's a lot of joy) and thats a wrap.
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I guess I need to add you to the ignore list since you are not willing to listen to the truth and learn.
. I've got a raging headache as i type this, feel like throwing up, can't sleep...it's an awful feeling. It feels my world is caving in. I don't know who I can turn to...when i asked my mother about this she said a lot about not asking questions, trust God, she even said maybe I have to find truth elsewhere, as if she was 'giving up' on me.
