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There seems to be a disagreement among Christians if Jesus condemns or condones war.
For one I find it to be really stretching things to use words and actions that Jesus used to demonstrate his disapproval of Empire and the way people thought and acted within the Empire in which he lived as an excuse to start wars with other nations.
The cleansing of the Temple was not a green light to go to war with other nations, I really do not know how anyone could use that as a justification for going to war, it really had to do with the situation within the Empire in which Jesus lived.
Likewise with calling some elements of the Empire in which he lived vipers etc. how anyone thinks that Jesus was using that as a call to war against other nations also takes a vivid imagination.
Jesus was a Jew whose audience were Jews living in a corrupt ungodly war mongering Empire as we here in America live today.
We are called to live out the message of Jesus who was a rebel and who was put to death as a revolutionary because he was deemed to be a threat to the Empire.
Unfortunately some have taken Jesus wrapped him in a flag and created an American version of Jesus to fit their concept of what they want Jesus to look like.
Ecclesiates 3:1 - There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven--
Ecclesiates 3:8 - A time to love and a time to hate; A time for war and a time for peace.
You can also read thru the middle of Revelation.
I think government should serve the citizens within their boundary. If that calls for going to war out of their own safety, then I think war is warranted.
Ecclesiates 3:1 - There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven--
Ecclesiates 3:8 - A time to love and a time to hate; A time for war and a time for peace.
You can also read thru the middle of Revelation.
I think government should serve the citizens within their boundary. If that calls for going to war out of their own safety, then I think war is warranted.
I don't Jesus made any direct anti-war statement.
Why do I have to keep repeating myself, but here it is again and again
btw even if you believe in the Christian excuse for going to war "Just War Theory" very, very few conflicts our country have even come close to meeting the requirements of the so call "Christian" Just War Theory
What Jesus had to say.
Matthew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers,for they will be called children of God.
38* “You have heard that it was said,x ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39y But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil.
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.
Matthew 6:52
52 Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its sheath, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
Mark 9:50
Salt is good, but if salt becomes insipid, with what will you restore its flavor? Keep salt in yourselves and you will have peace with one another.”
Luke 1:79
to shine on those who sit in darkness and death’s shadow, to guide our feet into the path of peace.”
Luke 6:27
27r “But to you who hear I say, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
Romans 3:15-17
Their feet are quick to shed blood;
j16ruin and misery are in their ways,
17and the way of peace they know not.
Romans 12:17
Do not repay anyone evil for evil; be concerned for what is noble in the sight of all
Romans 12:21
Do not be conquered by evil but conquer evil with good
Romans 14:19
Let us* then pursue what leads to peace and to building up one another
Corinthians 7:15
God has called you to peace
14:33
since he is not the God of disorder but of peace.
2 Corinthians 10:3-4
For, although we are in the flesh, we do not battle according to the flesh
for the weapons of our battle are not of flesh but are enormously powerful, capable of destroying fortresses. We destroy arguments
Ephesians 2:17
He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near.
Colossians 3:15
And let the peace of Christ control your hearts, the peace into which you were also called in one body. And be thankful.l
Hebrews 12:14
Strive for peace with everyone, and for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
James 3:18
And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for those who cultivate peace
1 Peter 3:8
Do not return evil for evil, or insult for insult; but, on the contrary, a blessing, because to this you were called, that you might inherit a blessing.
1 Peter 3:11
must turn from evil and do good, seek peace and follow after it.
Jesus said I give you a new commandment to love one and another as I have loved you.
We are called to love everyone as Jesus did, you do not create war, invade countries and kill those you love, we are called to love our enemies, are they really our enemy just because someone in the government wants to wage war?
Can you show us ANY statement Jesus made that said using a drone that's going to kill an innocent child is A-OK with Him?
Did Jesus have to say, "Thou shalt not use a nuclear weapon" so we wouldn't? Does Jesus care if our bomb-dropping is "warranted"? Because I'm thinking the soul of a Japanese grandmother (Hiroshima. Nagasaki) is as precious to him as any other.
Last edited by DewDropInn; 07-18-2013 at 01:54 PM..
well, they did war in the OT. but we are not in the OT. Back in those days God was wiping out races. These days the war is driven by money and nothing else. Not too keep us safe. we don't even have an agenda to be in the wars we are in. you never even hear about it anymore. not sure if it is something we should be doing. I was out there several years back. I thought I was doing the right thing.
I think people believe that we are a Christian nation, we are a post Christian nation now. Christianity does not have the influence it once had. Whether Jesus would approve of what we do, I really don't think so. But war will allways be a racquet and will always exist while were are in our mortal bodies.
Why do I have to keep repeating myself, but here it is again and again
btw even if you believe in the Christian excuse for going to war "Just War Theory" very, very few conflicts our country have even come close to meeting the requirements of the so call "Christian" Just War Theory
...
Jesus said I give you a new commandment to love one and another as I have loved you.
We are called to love everyone as Jesus did, you do not create war, invade countries and kill those you love, we are called to love our enemies, are they really our enemy just because someone in the government wants to wage war?
Don't mistake personal conduct for government responsibility.
We are a bunch of sinners in this world. There is going to be war.
I'm not saying Jesus or the Father likes it - but it is a necessary evil in this world. God had the leaders in Israel put together an army for a reason.
Personal opinion, war is not a good answer for anyone, but I don't think Jesus was about national or international politics. Each of us has to make a determination about our support or not of government policies and practices as we do have a voice however small. Personally there isn't much about war that I have seen that I could support now, but I'm also past the age where I would have to pay a price for going against the direct action of the government in going to war.
Can you show us ANY statement Jesus made that said using a drone that's going to kill an innocent child is A-OK with Him?
Did Jesus have to say, "Thou shalt not use a nuclear weapon" so we wouldn't? Does Jesus care if our bomb-dropping is "warranted"? Because I'm thinking the soul of a Japanese grandmother (Hiroshima. Nagasaki) is as precious to him as any other.
You should probably read thru the OT. Jesus is present as the Lord of the OT that spoke to Moses, Joshua, the kings, and the prophets.
Example...
1 Samuel 15:1-33
1 Then Samuel said to Saul, "The LORD sent me to anoint you as king over His people, over Israel; now therefore, listen to the words of the LORD. 2 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, `I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. 3 `Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.' " 4 Then Saul summoned the people and numbered them in Telaim, 200,000 foot soldiers and 10,000 men of Judah. 5 Saul came to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the valley. 6 Saul said to the Kenites, "Go, depart, go down from among the Amalekites, so that I do not destroy you with them; for you showed kindness to all the sons of Israel when they came up from Egypt." So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites. 7 So Saul defeated the Amalekites, from Havilah as you go to Shur, which is east of Egypt. 8 He captured Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword. 9 But Saul and the people spared Agag and the best of the sheep, the oxen, the fatlings, the lambs, and all that was good, and were not willing to destroy them utterly; but everything despised and worthless, that they utterly destroyed.
10 Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel, saying, 11 "I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following Me and has not carried out My commands." And Samuel was distressed and cried out to the LORD all night. 12 Samuel rose early in the morning to meet Saul; and it was told Samuel, saying, "Saul came to Carmel, and behold, he set up a monument for himself, then turned and proceeded on down to Gilgal." 13 Samuel came to Saul, and Saul said to him, "Blessed are you of the LORD! I have carried out the command of the LORD." 14 But Samuel said, "What then is this bleating of the sheep in my ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?" 15 Saul said, "They have brought them from the Amalekites, for the people spared the best of the sheep and oxen, to sacrifice to the LORD your God; but the rest we have utterly destroyed." 16 Then Samuel said to Saul, "Wait, and let me tell you what the LORD said to me last night." And he said to him, "Speak!" 17 Samuel said, "Is it not true, though you were little in your own eyes, you were made the head of the tribes of Israel? And the LORD anointed you king over Israel, 18 and the LORD sent you on a mission, and said, `Go and utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are exterminated.' 19 "Why then did you not obey the voice of the LORD, but rushed upon the spoil and did what was evil in the sight of the LORD?" 20 Then Saul said to Samuel, "I did obey the voice of the LORD, and went on the mission on which the LORD sent me, and have brought back Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites. 21 "But the people took some of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the choicest of the things devoted to destruction, to sacrifice to the LORD your God at Gilgal." 22 Samuel said, "Has the LORD as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices As in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams. 23 "For rebellion is as the sin of divination, And insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, He has also rejected you from being king."
24 Then Saul said to Samuel, "I have sinned; I have indeed transgressed the command of the LORD and your words, because I feared the people and listened to their voice. 25 "Now therefore, please pardon my sin and return with me, that I may worship the LORD." 26 But Samuel said to Saul, "I will not return with you; for you have rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD has rejected you from being king over Israel." 27 As Samuel turned to go, Saul seized the edge of his robe, and it tore. 28 So Samuel said to him, "The LORD has torn the kingdom of Israel from you today and has given it to your neighbor, who is better than you. 29 "Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind." 30 Then he said, "I have sinned; but please honor me now before the elders of my people and before Israel, and go back with me, that I may worship the LORD your God." 31 So Samuel went back following Saul, and Saul worshiped the LORD.
32 Then Samuel said, "Bring me Agag, the king of the Amalekites." And Agag came to him cheerfully. And Agag said, "Surely the bitterness of death is past." 33 But Samuel said, "As your sword has made women childless, so shall your mother be childless among women." And Samuel hewed Agag to pieces before the LORD at Gilgal.
Did you know that there was another survivor from Agag's people? Haman from the book of Esther, who plotted to wipe out the Jews. If Saul would have carried out the Lord's command - that whole scene in Esther would not have occurred.
I post this to know the Lord's character. He protects those who are His. The Lord is getting back at those people for attacking Israel in the days of Egypt.
The love, along with all of His other characteristics, doesn't disappear. That's what we have a problem with.
You should probably read thru the OT. Jesus is present as the Lord of the OT that spoke to Moses, Joshua, the kings, and the prophets.
Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him;but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.' "
He captured Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.But Saul and the people spared Agag and the best of the sheep, the oxen, the fatlings, the lambs, and all that was good, and were not willing to destroy them utterly;but everything despised and worthless, that they utterly destroyed.
Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel, saying,"I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following Me and has not carried out My commands."
Did you know that there was another survivor from Agag's people? Haman from the book of Esther, who plotted to wipe out the Jews.
If Saul would have carried out the Lord's command - that whole scene in Esther would not have occurred.
I post this to know the Lord's character. He protects those who are His. The Lord is getting back at those people for attacking Israel in the days of Egypt.
The love, along with all of His other characteristics, doesn't disappear. That's what we have a problem with.
What we have is a failure to comprehend, if you believe that a loving father would command the slaughtering of the innocent?
Including, women, children, infants, desert and farm animals; all that were good. Unless of course, you consider them worthless?
You honestly think that the way to protect someone, comes from commanding them to destroy others?
I suppose, we should murder our neighbors, before they kill us? Including, the women, children, and family pets!
Perhaps, we should do a drive-by to see, if there is anything that we might want to keep before shooting them?
I highly doubt that it was the word of the lord, more like their own thoughts and actions in the name of God?
What we have is a failure to comprehend, if you believe that a loving father would command the slaughtering of the innocent?
Including, women, children, infants, desert and farm animals; all that were good. Unless of course, you consider them worthless?
You honestly think that the way to protect someone, comes from commanding them to destroy others?
I suppose, we should murder our neighbors, before they kill us? Including, the women, children, and family pets!
Perhaps, we should do a drive-by to see, if there is anything that we might want to keep before shooting them?
I highly doubt that it was the word of the lord, more like their own thoughts and actions in the name of God?
From God's perspective - who is innocent? Nobody.
Red... Sometimes yes... sometimes no. God destroyed the Egyptian army in the Red Sea. Sodom and Gomorrah. The Canaanites before Israel moved in...
You guys always make non-sense extrapolations with this stuff. God is not telling you to do some drive-by.
The Lord usually has a reason for this stuff - and it involves sin.
Love is not the only facet of God's character. The angels who see God as He is did not say Love, Love, Love...
Isaiah 6:3 - And one called out to another and said, "Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of hosts, The whole earth is full of His glory."
Last edited by DRob4JC; 07-19-2013 at 08:19 AM..
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