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I'll do my best to describe the dilemma I'm facing, by using the below illustration:
20 years ago, you do to buy a new car. You're greeted by a salesperson, who makes his pitch. Then you get down to negotiations, and they go very badly.
The whole experience was unpleasant, to the extent that you decide you never want to buy a car again.
***
You attend a church some time back. You find that the people there love the Lord, but whether they realize it or not, they're graceless, thus are spiritually proud.
They don't seek to disciple you, nor do they seek to bear your burdens with any consistency (if really at all). But you can be sure that, if you share something during a men's bible study, they'll be sure to "speak the truth in love."
***
As it is with the car salesperson's example, the presentation/negotiation process that is common to one salesperson, is common to them all.
Likewise, man's character is the same, as is his sin nature. If you go to one church and experience issues, you'll likely experience the same issues in any number of churches. Man's character is the same; the issues or things that man struggles with will be present in any church/denomination.
The issue I face is twofold:
It's been my experience that few believers will meet you half way, in a personal disagreement. They're all to happy to point out where you're wrong, but they gloss over any culpability on their end. Thus if I have an issue with a person, the burden lies totally with me. Such has been the case with even very learned believers.
Thus, in having a disagreement, I will go to the Scriptures in search of the truth - be it to see the situation on the whole, discern where I am wrong, etc. Many times I find that I am not 100% at fault. I do my best to forgive that person or offence, and I am not looking for an apology - but because people won't meet me in the middle, there's a lack of closure. Usually, I put it out of my mind, but the hurt remains.
The hurt resurfaces when I am confronted with like situations (sins) - much like a car buyer's stomach turns into knots when he sits down to negotiate the price of a car: it might be a different dealership, and a different car, but the process is the same.
Likewise, I might run into some situations: different people; man's sin nature is the same. This brings to the surface past hurts, and makes dealing with a situation (and *total* and *complete* forgiveness, darned near impossible - for past hurt keeps surfacing when I am confronted in different situations).
If I may leave the reader with one last example:
Several years ago, when I was a young believer, two or so years into the faith, I met a man who showed up sporadically. Like a few other brothers, I may have thought this man's sporadic attendance may have been owed to an inconsistent Christian walk. After knowing the man for a good year, I found out that his sporadic attendance had to do with his occupation: he was an over the road truck driver! How wrong I was! I learned a great deal from/by this...
Most biblically sound churches are dogmatic in their doctrine. Dogmatic attitudes can sometimes lead to spiritual pride. A Pharisaical heart can be reasoned away for the young believer, but many learned believers have hardened hearts. Pride can make having relationships with people very difficult.
This is something I have a hard time with. I am working this out, but I have a ways to go. I am not a person that has problems with people. I have good relationships with my Wife, friends, and past co-workers. But I need to get over this issue with certain attitudes in the church, and how I can better deal with them.
I thank the reader in advance for his/her time . Sorry for the lengthy post.
I'll do my best to describe the dilemma I'm facing, by using the below illustration:
20 years ago, you do to buy a new car. You're greeted by a salesperson, who makes his pitch. Then you get down to negotiations, and they go very badly.
The whole experience was unpleasant, to the extent that you decide you never want to buy a car again.
***
You attend a church some time back. You find that the people there love the Lord, but whether they realize it or not, they're graceless, thus are spiritually proud.
They don't seek to disciple you, nor do they seek to bear your burdens with any consistency (if really at all). But you can be sure that, if you share something during a men's bible study, they'll be sure to "speak the truth in love."
***
As it is with the car salesperson's example, the presentation/negotiation process that is common to one salesperson, is common to them all.
Likewise, man's character is the same, as is his sin nature. If you go to one church and experience issues, you'll likely experience the same issues in any number of churches. Man's character is the same; the issues or things that man struggles with will be present in any church/denomination.
The issue I face is twofold:
It's been my experience that few believers will meet you half way, in a personal disagreement. They're all to happy to point out where you're wrong, but they gloss over any culpability on their end. Thus if I have an issue with a person, the burden lies totally with me. Such has been the case with even very learned believers.
Thus, in having a disagreement, I will go to the Scriptures in search of the truth - be it to see the situation on the whole, discern where I am wrong, etc. Many times I find that I am not 100% at fault. I do my best to forgive that person or offence, and I am not looking for an apology - but because people won't meet me in the middle, there's a lack of closure. Usually, I put it out of my mind, but the hurt remains.
The hurt resurfaces when I am confronted with like situations (sins) - much like a car buyer's stomach turns into knots when he sits down to negotiate the price of a car: it might be a different dealership, and a different car, but the process is the same.
Likewise, I might run into some situations: different people; man's sin nature is the same. This brings to the surface past hurts, and makes dealing with a situation (and *total* and *complete* forgiveness, darned near impossible - for past hurt keeps surfacing when I am confronted in different situations).
If I may leave the reader with one last example:
Several years ago, when I was a young believer, two or so years into the faith, I met a man who showed up sporadically. Like a few other brothers, I may have thought this man's sporadic attendance may have been owed to an inconsistent Christian walk. After knowing the man for a good year, I found out that his sporadic attendance had to do with his occupation: he was an over the road truck driver! How wrong I was! I learned a great deal from/by this...
Most biblically sound churches are dogmatic in their doctrine. Dogmatic attitudes can sometimes lead to spiritual pride. A Pharisaical heart can be reasoned away for the young believer, but many learned believers have hardened hearts. Pride can make having relationships with people very difficult.
This is something I have a hard time with. I am working this out, but I have a ways to go. I am not a person that has problems with people. I have good relationships with my Wife, friends, and past co-workers. But I need to get over this issue with certain attitudes in the church, and how I can better deal with them.
I thank the reader in advance for his/her time . Sorry for the lengthy post.
Would you please write some specific scenarios you've had with the spiritually proud in a church setting? Thank you.
Most biblically sound churches are dogmatic in their doctrine. Dogmatic attitudes can sometimes lead to spiritual pride. A Pharisaical heart can be reasoned away for the young believer, but many learned believers have hardened hearts. Pride can make having relationships with people very difficult.
This is something I have a hard time with. I am working this out, but I have a ways to go. I am not a person that has problems with people. I have good relationships with my Wife, friends, and past co-workers. But I need to get over this issue with certain attitudes in the church, and how I can better deal with them.
I thank the reader in advance for his/her time . Sorry for the lengthy post.
Your angst is why we are to focus our eyes on God over everything else.
Let the human stuff go! It's all ego generated and therefore flawed, on the part of others and yourself.
Eyes on God and all the other crap won't matter to you one whit.
It is an unfortunate thing you report on; I wish I could say I experienced it with frequency. I did see it once or twice in my walk, after having been a member in one congregation for several years. I simply left. What you describe is not the norm.
Having said that, you need to have the courage of David and be a solitary person in your faith and beliefs. David was a King embraced by many but he never forgot the G-d who spoke to him in the quiet places as a shepherd. David never forgot the G-d who gave him bravery to face fierce animals in the wilderness. When you can have that type of confidence in G-d and the word that supports you, you don't have to be shaken.
Yes, I say it is volitional, because all of our paths are with G-d, not others. They may walk beside us or follow, as egalitarian yoke bearers, and sometimes they can lead, but never to the point where we are in a dominated, one-down position. While there have been times in my life when I felt this way, there were far many more when I felt great support. There is a mixture of spiritual maturity, wise confidence in knowing the word, and a kind of armor against attack. There are many forces, some not of this world. And it is a path you must traverse regularly, so you can be comfortable in it. This world is not our home and we are in enemy territory.
Who hasn't faced these issues to some degree? There's an ole mariner sayin'; "if you haven't been aground, you haven't been around".
Dealing with fallible humans is what we have... not much of a choice when you get down to brass tacks. We need other human relationships and spiritual relationships to feel whole. It's easy to say "be God minded and all will pale" but since we are both flesh and spirit, how can any of us be just vertically focused? We can't... even Jesus didn't. He realized how he must forge relationships with people... all kinds of people.
There's no single answer anyone can provide that will make it all fall into place. Certainly we bring this to prayer, and faithfully wait for God to lead us…. But we aren’t that faithful to always see what He wants us to do. When faced with these issues I’ve always found this to be true…. God whispers to us in success, he speaks to us when were troubled and screams at us in distress”. I kinda think He’s screaming about now.
Try looking back for signs or opportunities missed or glanced over. Revisit them and see if there is a remedy for your situation. Too often we move in the direction “we” feel is correct, while in fact, God was leading us in another direction.
Ok... now for how to deal with people. First thing I 've done is get this in my mind; seek to understand and then to be understood. This approach = respect = building relationships = openness/trust.
If you’re respectful, in spite of another’s hardheadedness, the cycle of continual conflict stops (this is the sales pitch) Maturity wins out and another golden moment goes in the wisdom column. Easy to say and hard to do.
Your goal then becomes building relationships which is the process (negotiation). This is like a dance and who's gonna lead or follow. A smart lady once told me... a man is the captain of the ship (relationship) but a woman is like the rudder. No matter where the captain wants the ship to go, the rudder is actually what does it. Being a rudder works.
Trust... it's the product (the sale). Once your here it's all good and once again we/you/I can become iron upon iron.
Would you please write some specific scenarios you've had with the spiritually proud in a church setting? Thank you.
Thanks for writing
At one time I worked in a position that enabled me to mentor and evangelize teenagers. It was an emotionally draining job; often a thankless one.
I worked 35-40 miles from my church. The congregation was fairly small; many members knew where I worked.
I used to rush to Wed night service from work; I was often late, sometimes I'd show up 15 minutes into the worship. There's one of three ways to look at my tardiness:
1) Not to acknowledge it at all; in spirit, and/or in mind.
2) Consider: "It's better to be a little late to worship, than not to go at all. Thus, NDL's "fruit" is that he has his priorities straight by going to Wed night service.
3) Consider: "NDL is late to service. His "fruit" is that he doesn't put God first. If he did, he'd allocate enough time that he'd be to church on time"
I was young in my walk; my Spirit didn't deflect criticism well (James 1:19). I got tired of hearing "hints" from the ushers, and preaching from the Pastor. I stopped going on Wed night...
The problem I have with the above type of approach is that the glass is half empty; it's seldom half full. When you don't follow in the established path, you're not received. If you're a man who colors "outside the lines" ever so slightly, you'll be rejected. People keep you at an arms length.
It wasn't until I studied my Bible, that I found people like myself. Even the great servant Nehemiah was scared; Jesus was anxious in the Garden of Gethsemany; Thomas doubted.
Spiritually proud people, lacking in grace, are always want to have a rebuke of some sort. It's never from a position of a peer; never seeking to help. It's often in judgement.
I've seen it in my life, and I've seen it in the lives of others - and it's given me the opportunity to disciple those who've likewise been "shut out."
IHaving said that, you need to have the courage of David and be a solitary person in your faith and beliefs. David was a King embraced by many but he never forgot the G-d who spoke to him in the quiet places as a shepherd. David never forgot the G-d who gave him bravery to face fierce animals in the wilderness. When you can have that type of confidence in G-d and the word that supports you, you don't have to be shaken.
Thank you . I will prayerfully consider all that you've written. I have a feeling you're right, in having the courage of David, in solitude. In other words, I cringe when I consider what I am being prepared to do...
First thing I 've done is get this in my mind; seek to understand and then to be understood. This approach = respect = building relationships = openness/trust. If you’re respectful, in spite of another’s hardheadedness, the cycle of continual conflict stops (this is the sales pitch) Maturity wins out and another golden moment goes in the wisdom column. Easy to say and hard to do. Your goal then becomes building relationships which is the process (negotiation). This is like a dance and who's gonna lead or follow. A smart lady once told me... a man is the captain of the ship (relationship) but a woman is like the rudder. No matter where the captain wants the ship to go, the rudder is actually what does it. Being a rudder works.
Y'all have left me with a lot to consider. Thank you all
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