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zimbabwe, I have a question regarding works. When I was in the mormon church, long-time members explained to me that works are done to serve others but also to gain a higher place in the celestial kingdom and that is why one endeavors to do them.
Now that I am in a different place, works are simply considered a fruit of the Spirit within us and we endeavor to do them to please God and serve others with no other motive.
Do you agree or disagree with either of these or is there more to it than what I have learned?
Zimbabwe,
You quote Act 26:19-20, yet read it in context with verse 17 & 18
[Jesus' command to Pau]
ACTS 26:17-18 "I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.' "
Again "Sanctified BY FAITH". "santified" means to be madeholy [how] BY FAITH.
The major problem with Paul was [Acts 26:5]
"They have known me for a long time and can testify, if they are willing, that according to the strictest sect of our religion, I lived as a Pharisee......."
Paul obeyed Christs' command and preached it..... What was Pauls crime?
Acts 18: 13-14 While Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews made a united attack on Paul and brought him into court. 13"This man,"[Paul] they charged, "is persuading the people to worship God in ways contrary to the law."
John 6: 28-29
28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
You are correct, that doesn't give us a license to "sin willfuly".
Galations 5:13 "You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature ; rather, serve one another in love"
The deeds of repentance are aka a persons fruits:
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law"
Last edited by twin.spin; 02-01-2008 at 12:08 PM..
Urban and Twin have brought up some good questions. Now is a good time to discuss the unique Mormon doctrine of multiple kingdoms of glory. But before I launch into that, I would like to address Twin's comments and little bit of Urban's commments regarding "works".
"Works" is a big tent. It is anything that someone does as opposed to passively believes. If we interpret the scriptures and Paul's writings to mean that all we have to do is believe in a passive sense and we are saved (and there are passages of scripture that could reasonably be interpretated that way, if read outside of the context of the rest of the Bible), then we must contend with many passages of scripture, including Paul's writings, that indicate the neccessity of "works" or action on our part. We could go on quite a while quoting various scriptures to support one view or another and never be reconciled. The Bible it would seem is contradictory, but we know it isn't.
Paul in his day had to contend with Judaizing Christians who insisted that the gentiles follow the law of circumcision. Paul preached till he was blue in the face against this false doctrine. The law of Moses was fulfilled in Christ. This is not the "law' referred to in the third article of faith. The Ten Commandments, however, have never been repealed--and they are not suggestions, they are commandments, are they not? And they are not so hard that they are out of the reach of humanitiy's ability ot keep.
Now this is the point of my post. The "faith" Paul refers to is not a passive belief but rather a deep abiding trust in God and a desire to do his will. Faith is always linked to action or works and will always be or it is not true faith. Faith always leads to repentence and greater desire and effort to follow God's will. If we interpret "faith" like this, as an action word instead of passive belief, then all those seeming contradictions in the Bible go away.
Twin has said, and I agree completely, that the fruits of repentence are "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law"
I think we are really saying the same thing with an ever so slightly different points of view. Many protestants believe that faith in Christ is the only thing neccesary for salvation and those with true faith will repent and follow God. Mormons on the other hand believe that if you say you believe in Christ but don't follow up with repentence then you really don't have faith. It sounds the same to me.
I would like to hear other points of view on this.
There is also one important aspect to "works" that I haven't discussed because I planned to bring it up with the 4th article of faith, and that is the necessity of certain ordinances such as baptism.
Since there seems to be no further discussion on "works"-- for what reason I can only guess--I am going to go on to discuss the 4th article of faith. It is very related to the third article of faith:
We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first,Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
The first principle is Faith. I have discussed faith in the post above. I think that everyone agrees that faith is neccessay for salvation.
The next principle is repentence. I think there may be some difference between the LDS and others on this. One simply cannot enter into the kingdom of God without repentence. Repentence is painful and not easy. It does not consist of merely saying "I'm sorry". The steps of repentence are 1) recognition--we must first recognize that we have sinned; 2) remorse--we must truly feel sorry for what we have done. Paul told the Corinthians that "godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation"; 3) Confession-- we must confess our sins unto God and if we have hurt others in our sin, we must confess our sins to those we have hurt. If we hurt others in private, we may confess in private, but if we sin in public, we must confess in public. Moral transgressions and serious sins require confession to an ecclesiastical authority who must make assist that individual in the repentence process; 4) Restitution--the sinner must make restitution for his sins as much as possible, i.e., if one is guilty of spreading false rumors about an individual then that person should endeavor as much as possible to set the record straight, etc; And finally, 5) Forsake--the repentent individual must forsake his sin. The abuser must stop the abuse, the liar msut abandon liying, etc
Some may erroneously think that repentence is "earning" forgiveness and salvation, especially when I speak of restitution. This is not the case. The Lord requires the sacrifice of a brokern heart and a contrite spirit and this comes with true repentence.
I think that repentence is the forgotten doctrine of today's Christianity and would be the source of great personal and national blessings if serioulsy considered. Without repentence there can be no forgiveness and without forgiveness there can be no happiness and salvation.
I think that repentence is the forgotten doctrine of today's Christianity
Even today, a truly repentant heart is necessary to receive Christ's forgiveness. I don't think that it is forgotten; it is just as important today as it was throughout Biblical times or any other time, really.
As for the war in heaven, we believe that Lucifer was one of the angels, not a son of God. He desired God's power for himself, so he rebelled. This resulted in a war, which he lost. He was then cast out of heaven along with those angels who followed him. They are now his demons.
Angels, sons, demons, etcetera. It's all just semantics. I don't think it makes an iota of difference whether we call Lucifer the brother of Jesus or the third-cousin. It may be fun to discuss from a theological standpoint, but I don't see how it changes God's plan for humanity.
Some may erroneously think that repentence is "earning" forgiveness and salvation, especially when I speak of restitution. This is not the case. The Lord requires the sacrifice of a brokern heart and a contrite spirit and this comes with true repentence.
I think that repentence is the forgotten doctrine of today's Christianity and would be the source of great personal and national blessings if serioulsy considered. Without repentence there can be no forgiveness and without forgiveness there can be no happiness and salvation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlemur
Even today, a truly repentant heart is necessary to receive Christ's forgiveness. I don't think that it is forgotten; it is just as important today as it was throughout Biblical times or any other time, really.
I agree with Urban. I was referring to this "miscommunication" in my earlier post. I think that the LDS people in general think that mainstream Christianity says that all we have to do is say I'm sorry. In reality, that is a portion of it. It is critical that following the repentance, a change take place in the person. They should turn away from their previous sinful nature. We may not have the 5-step process outlined by the LDS doctrine, but we do still preach that a change must occur in attitude and behavior. If an individual repents, but continues in his old nature, he is merely paying lip-service to the Lord and not truly repentant.
They should turn away from their previous sinful nature. We may not have the 5-step process outlined by the LDS doctrine, but we do still preach that a change must occur in attitude and behavior.
Think of this as Weight Watchers for sin. You may have another method for changing your behavior and repenting, but this works for us.
Quote:
If an individual repents, but continues in his old nature, he is merely paying lip-service to the Lord and not truly repentant.
Maybe, but people are weak. I know that I'm sometimes very sincere, but I backslide because I'm still working on this thing called life.
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