Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I don't want to go too far off-topic here, but I really don't get that statement.
We can have different beliefs, but different Truths? I mean, Truth is Truth, maybe one person's Truth doesn't suit another person's truth. But that doesn't make it any less true.
Well, I see what you mean, maybe I didn't explain myself well enough. There the "truth" about creation/evolution, Noah's Ark, and even the bible itself. It's a Truth that can't be proven to suit everyone. Is the bible really the Inspired Word of God? Or is it perhaps been mistranslated or added to in spots? Many believe every word is absolutly true. Others, myself included, think that a lot of it is legend handed down by word of mouth. What is True?
I am sure that there are Mormons, just as there are Christians, that mentally cross their fingers when they state what they "believe."
Alpha, I think you know (at least intrinsically) that there is a difference between "Truth" and "truth". Capital T is universal - little t is personal (or individualistic, or specific to a group).
So we can have different truths (one could call this "belief" as you have in your post), but not different Truths.
The problem is that most people believe that their truth is the Truth.
It's an odd distinction - but a necessary one if we want to study things like history, philosophy, and sociology.
I don't believe that Truth should ever be applied to any belief system but only to proven facts - now if we could only agree on what is fact.
I'm trying to put all of this together in my head to make a point. It's just not coming out in type quite right.
Padgett said:
Quote:
What it boils down to, is that anyone that wants to consider themselves a Christian, can do so. It's not for me, or anyone else, to say that they aren't.
And then said:
Quote:
Truth to one person is not always the same to another.
<And Padgett, I think you know me well enough to know I'm not attacking you. We're just having a discussion>
OK. So what I am saying is b. frank, if someone came on here and said, I don't believe in the Christian God but I do believe there's a god. Oh, and by the way, I'm an atheist."
Would you not say, "Sorry, dear, you're not a Christian but you clearly aren't an atheist either"?
I mean, that's not being judgmental to accusatory, it's just saying that by definition, someone who believes in a god is not an atheist.
So if someone comes here and can give evidence that Mormons are Christian, fine, but if someone else comes and gives evidence they are not, then equally fine.
Ultimately, for the believer, the judgment is God's and God's alone. But we, as humans, can discuss the issues by saying 'If you believe this, then you are Christian" and "If you don't believe this then you are not".....as long as what we say lines up with what God says in His word.
Again, you know I'm answering from a theistic standpoint.
So, the Truth is the Truth, in this context and while both can be wrong, both can not be right.
I am sure that there are Mormons, just as there are Christians, that mentally cross their fingers when they state what they "believe."
I expect there are. And by the way, I posted my post above as you posted this one, so for clarity, keep in mind it was written prior to my reading this one.
Well, I think I initially stated that "we do need to discern the truth." That said, yes, it is very apparent that what one person considers the truth will not necessarily be considered the truth by someone else. My point, was, however, that it is possible to attempt to discover, believe, and teach what we believe the veracity of something to be without being judgmental. In other words, I believe that I can state that I do not think a large portion of Mormon doctrine is the truth, and my stating that is not IMO being judgmental at all of Mormons themselves, some of whom I am and have been very fond of. I am simply making a judgment about whether I believe their doctrine is correct or not. That, to me, is not being judgmental of them as people.
Like Alpha says though, once the mormon members come along here, hopefully we can keep this thread reasonable because they too, have a right to defend what they believe in. It has gotten rather nasty in the past and I for one, do not want to see that happen again.
I agree. There is a fine line of respect that needs to be observed when discussing the differences between two faiths. Just because we do not agree with someone does not give us the right to toss the "cult" word around. We need to realize that the majority of the people who are members of the LDS church feel every bit as strongly about their beliefs as we do about ours. It seems that because many mainstream Christians have been taught that Mormonism is a cult, that they view LDS people as evil and "out to get you" with their missionaries. That is so untrue. These people are sincere in their beliefs and have the same intentions in proselytizing as you would if you were doing it. They honestly believe they have the truth, just like we believe we have the truth. We don't need to feel threatened by that.
I have lived in Utah for many years and I have a tremendous amount of respect for the LDS people. For the most part, they are some of the kindest people you will ever meet. I have found that the best way to interact with them is this: If they bring up their church/beliefs, I just tell them that I am not interested and that I am already very dedicated to my own church. There is nothing offensive in kindly saying, "No, thank you." (They would most likely tell me the same things if the roles were reversed.) This does not mean an end to the friendship. I used to discuss things with my LDS coworkers quite frequently. They would say their belief regarding a certain topic, and then I would reciprocate. We would civily discuss why we believed them differently. We never resorted to name-calling or arguments. Obviously we are not going to agree....if we agreed, we would be attending the same church.
There is absolutely no way that yelling "You're going to hell!" will ever get someone to leave the LDS church. I cringe everytime I see the "Christians" down at Temple Square with the signs and yelling. They are not helping the cause of Christ. Neither is badmouthing them on this forum. We can do this civily with the intent to learn about one-another. If not done civily, it will accomplish nothing.
Well, I think I initially stated that "we do need to discern the truth." That said, yes, it is very apparent that what one person considers the truth will not necessarily be considered the truth by someone else. My point, was, however, that it is possible to attempt to discover, believe, and teach what we believe the veracity of something to be without being judgmental. In other words, I believe that I can state that I do not think a large portion of Mormon doctrine is the truth, and my stating that is not IMO being judgmental at all of Mormons themselves, some of whom I am and have been very fond of. I am simply making a judgment about whether I believe their doctrine is correct or not. That, to me, is not being judgmental of them as people.
This kinda goes back to that post I wrote a day or two ago about being offensive.
I mean, let's face it, if Mormons are totally honest, they have to believe there's faults with my theology...or else they'd agree with more 'mainstream' beliefs.
I know Sarge (a Mormon) and I have sat 'across the table' from each other and said, 'here's what I believe, and I don't agree with your way of thinking' but we're not mad at each other. (At least I'm not )
I'm not condemning anyone, that's not my job. My 'job' is to speak the Truth in love. Whether they agree with what I consider the Truth or not is beyond my control. As my agreeing to what they consider the truth is beyond their control. It's the only way to have a discussion without hurt feelings. At the end of the day, at least we understand each other a little better.
OK. So what I am saying is b. frank, if someone came on here and said, I don't believe in the Christian God but I do believe there's a god. Oh, and by the way, I'm an atheist."
Would you not say, "Sorry, dear, you're not a Christian but you clearly aren't an atheist either"?
I mean, that's not being judgmental to accusatory, it's just saying that by definition, someone who believes in a god is not an atheist.
So if someone comes here and can give evidence that Mormons are Christian, fine, but if someone else comes and gives evidence they are not, then equally fine.
Ultimately, for the believer, the judgment is God's and God's alone. But we, as humans, can discuss the issues by saying 'If you believe this, then you are Christian" and "If you don't believe this then you are not".....as long as what we say lines up with what God says in His word.
Again, you know I'm answering from a theistic standpoint.
So, the Truth is the Truth, in this context and while both can be wrong, both can not be right.
That's my point, albeit not very well delivered.
No, you said it fine and I agree with your assessment of truth.
My point is just that Christianity, Mormonism, atheism, etc. are all truths.
But none of them are the Truth.
The Truth is that we live in a world full of different truths.
One thing I learned from being a mormon years ago is that no matter what, the majority of them are very, and I mean very, adamant about what they believe and why. That's one thing about them I have to say is admirable. I don't believe in their doctrine now but I give them kudos for standing up for what they believe. Myself included, I sometimes wonder if we as christians could do better to defend our faith. Not to say that we don't but how much fire are we willing to go through for the sake of our Lord and Savior. I know I could do much more myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Most definitely! Although they would deny this. In reality, however, the Father God they believe in is the god with which we have to do. He is god over this planet. There are other gods over other planets. A Mormon man can attain to godhood and be himself a god over a planet. "As man is, god once was; as god is man may become." There is nothing Christian about this religion.
Presterist, I see you have set up your statement in such a manner that no matter what an LDS member might say in rebuttal, you can claim it is a denial of the real truth. I have seen criminal defense attorney’s use this tactic many times. “Officer, I know you won’t tell the truth, but didn’t you in fact beat my client without cause!?” Even though you have tied my hands, I will still address your statement.
LDS worship God. We believe in three distinct beings. God the Father, Jesus Christ, His son, and the Holy Ghost. We do not believe in the Trinity. Jesus Christ is the Creator of this world and all the rest. He did this under the direction of his Father.
Next, we do in fact believe in eternal progression, but it is unclear specifically what that is, since scripture does not specifically tell us. I—let me repeat that—I—believe it entails some sort of sharing in God’s Kingdom. Will we create other worlds? Who knows?
Finally, I will ask you some questions. Define Christian and Christianity. Tell me exactly why your particular brand of religion qualifies as Christian. Don’t tell me what you think; show me specifically in the Bible why your religion is Christian.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Padgett2: What Christ do they believe in--the Christ of Christianity or the Christ of Mormonism? The Christ of Christianity is God eternal come in the flesh--the unique Son of God, born of the Holy Spirit and of a virgin. The Christ of Mormonism is the spirit brother of Satan. He came about in the same way all men come about--through physical procreation.
I see you are still busy at work, Preterist. OK, yes, we do in fact believe that Satan is a disobedient child of God, and he was thrust from Heaven by those who were obedient. You might look up the definition of Satan; you will probably be surprised to find out what the name means. In any event, we do NOT worship or revere Satan in any manner. He is evil and the father of all lies. He is the cause of all suffering in this world.
I still can’t believe the lie that we believe God had sex with Mary to create Jesus is still going around. We believe the birth of Christ took place exactly as the Bible states. We do not nor have we ever stated or even implied we believe Jesus was the result of physical procreation. I dunno, Preterist, you better start checking your facts.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockyMtnr View Post
[font="Comic Sans MS"]Like almost everybody else, many Mormons aren't quite sure what they believe - except they have been taught to say, chant, repeat, sing certain things from birth -
OH, COME ON, Rocky!!! “Most” Mormons know more about scripture and their own religion than most ministers of other religions know about their own religions and scripture. If you want to do the sweeping generalization thing, then allow me to say that “most” folks in traditional Protestant and Catholic religions only know what their “professional” ministers tell them. I mean after all, that’s what they're paid to do.
On this forum, there are people who know much about religion and scripture, but they are interested in such things or they wouldn’t be here. For members of the LDS faith, intense knowledge of their faith and scripture is an absolute necessity, because we have NO paid ministry and one can be called to lead on a moments notice. There’s no time to attend an ecumenical college when it’s time to serve.
Last edited by Alpha8207; 12-07-2007 at 10:30 AM..
Reason: had to rebuild this-I totally screwed up Sarge...sorry!!
I know Sarge (a Mormon) and I have sat 'across the table' from each other and said, 'here's what I believe, and I don't agree with your way of thinking' but we're not mad at each other. (At least I'm not )
People who have repeatedly proven their honesty and integrity need not fear my anger, so you can be confident I bear no enmity toward you.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
)