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As an atheist I'd like to throw in my opinion, I grew up in a very religious Evangelical household. I was home schooled for 5 years. Christianity was central to my life until I was around 21, up to that point I occasionally had doubts, but wouldn't ever call myself a nonbeliever, I had accepted Christ as my savior at a young age. I had planned on becoming a missionary to central America. There was no single day when I thought, you know im living a lie, it was a transition over a few years. I was fearful of losing my faith and salvation in Christ. My family does not believe one can lose salvation who has truly accepted Christ, so I started wondering if I was ever a Christian. I sure thought I was all those years. I remember the first time I told someone I didn't believe in God, it actually startled me, but thats when I knew my faith was completely lost. From my experience, if heaven is for real, which I don't believe, no, I don't think atheists are saved. Of course Christians don't decide who gets saved, only God judges our souls, so who knows. To me, this is all in theory since I don't accept the idea of God or heaven.
As an atheist I'd like to throw in my opinion, I grew up in a very religious Evangelical household. I was home schooled for 5 years. Christianity was central to my life until I was around 21, up to that point I occasionally had doubts, but wouldn't ever call myself a nonbeliever, I had accepted Christ as my savior at a young age. I had planned on becoming a missionary to central America. There was no single day when I thought, you know im living a lie, it was a transition over a few years. I was fearful of losing my faith and salvation in Christ. My family does not believe one can lose salvation who has truly accepted Christ, so I started wondering if I was ever a Christian. I sure thought I was all those years. I remember the first time I told someone I didn't believe in God, it actually startled me, but thats when I knew my faith was completely lost. From my experience, if heaven is for real, which I don't believe, no, I don't think atheists are saved. Of course Christians don't decide who gets saved, only God judges our souls, so who knows. To me, this is all in theory since I don't accept the idea of God or heaven.
I truly sense your gentle and genuine spirit ... IMO, God is not finished with you yet.
I believe that if you were to read my spiritual testimony you would be shocked.
Actually, I feel that I should post it right here and now ...
Here are some highlights of my spiritual experiences, basically in chronological order. I have written this to glorify the Lord God Almighty, and I swear before Almighty God … every word of the following is the truth!
Years before being sent to Bulgaria: After losing a tennis match, I was sitting alone (wearily) when God said very clearly within me in a medium-volume voice: “When are you going to have had enough of this?” (i.e. playing so much tennis, etc.). I was shocked. I was not at all a religious person. Absolutely no one else was anywhere around at the time. I knew for sure that this had to be God! I was about age 40. About 3 years later,I was curious about a newspaper ad and I dragged a friend to see an evangelist broadcasting live via satellite from Brazil. We sat in the front row, and I was overcome by the gospel message and was “born-again”. I really did not know what had happened … but about 6 months later, my ideas, opinions, attitudes, interests, etc. began changing, and I started reading the Bible and going to an evangelical church.
Months before first going to Bulgaria: I woke up with a major muscle pull in my back (it must have been the way I slept). During many years of playing basketball and tennis, I had several of these types of injuries, and I knew this one wouldtake about 10 days to heal. At 9 am, an elderly lady from our church phoned and asked me how I was doing. I told her that I was in pain and why. She said, “No problem!”, and told me to put my right hand where the pain was andwe would pray in agreement about it and the Lord would take care of it. So, we prayed in faith “in the name of Jesus” and instantlythe pain was gone! For the nextseveral months, I had a very slight pain in that area of my back. I keptsaying to people, “Isn’t it obvious that God wants me to remember His great healing power, and also when and how He healed me!”
My first evangelizing trip (1992): I joined a missions organization which was taking 60 people to Bulgaria. In the capital city of Sofia, at the last moment I was switched from the team going to a city on the western border to the team going to a city located right in the middle of southern Bulgaria. Later, I realized that it was God who did this, because this city was where God wanted me to set up my central home base for future evangelizing all over southern Bulgaria. I took the bus alone to 2 villages and God gave me tremendous love for the people. In Bulgaria prior to July 1991, it was: “… illegal to mention the name of Jesus or quote a Scripture verse in newspapers, or on radio or television. Bulgaria had been the most Stalinistic of all the Communist nations in Europe; even more so than Russia itself.”
… from page 6 of the book “Fire From Heaven” ISBN 1-895-868-00-9
USA ••• For several years I had been desiring to receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit. An old extremely world-famous evangelist said: “If you do not receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit, you are living in a weak and impoverished condition.” Returning home from church one evening, I said dejectedly to my wife, “I probably won’t get it until I’m 93.” God’s sense of humor: I received it in 1993! --- There were 15 of us attending a Sunday night church service. I was standing at the front, facing 6 people who were on stage: my pastor and his wife, a visiting evangelist and his wife, my wife, and the piano player. We were all praying for me to receive this baptism. Shortly, I heard an angelic choir singing loudly (and with loud instruments). Later, my pastor said he heard me speak a few words in tongues, and I kept saying, “They all had microphones!” (because of the loud singing). Everyone on the stage also heard the angelic choir, as did 2 in the audience. We definitely heard all of this “in the spirit” (and not with our ears) because the angelic choir & instruments were not on the tape recording of the meeting.
Bulgaria••• One time our car died late on a Friday afternoon, and we pushed it to a mechanic’s shop. They really didn’t want to help, but God had other ideas. One mechanic rushed off to the parts store before it closed to get a water pump, and another one stayed late to install it. Later, our Bulgarian friends said it was quite a miracle for them to stay so late on a Friday afternoon; this is absolutely unheard of in Bulgaria! ••• Another time, we were driving through steep mountains when the radiator boiled over with the temperature gauge showing “Hot”. All we had were about 4 cups of water to put in the radiator, but the gauge showed “Cold” all the way to our church destination. It was here that the Holy Spirit helped Tony (who knew only a few words of English) translate very well for me. Later, when Tony's church heard about this, they were really amazed because Tony didn’t know English. ••• Another time, a policeman found us parked illegally, and he also found several violations with my driving documents. He said the total fine could be as much as 20,000 leva ($400), but after some discussion (and many silent fervent prayers) he let us go free! About an hour later, we went to order 30,000 more gospel tracts at the government printing company; half of the cost had to be paid in advance and amazingly it was exactly 20,000 leva! I made 9 trips alone to Bulgaria with the average length being 2 months.
USA••• At church, about 30 people were praying over me concerning my upcoming trip when one brother had a vision of me in a complete Orthodox priest’s outfit, holding a staff. In the vision, the people around me were bound by chains and when I touched their chains with the staff they fell off onto the ground. Our interpretation was: the priest’s outfit … the people will see me as a man of God, the staff … represented God’s authority and power (like Moses), the chains off … the people will be set free of spiritual bondages. All of this, of course, was to give me more confidence, and to convince the large church to support me with their prayers and finances.
Bulgaria ••• During my first 2 trips, my #1 partner (Tony) and I had to use words in Bulgarian, English, and French to be able to communicate effectively. ••• We visited deacon Dinko, and as we were leaving, he and his wife were praying for us when God gave him a vision of many angels around me (and on both sides of the road ahead of me), protecting me as I travelled. ••• Tony’s sister and I prayed for Tony’s painful toothache and red swollen gum, and they were healed almost instantly!
Bulgaria••• The Lord blessed Tony’s sister by instantly healing her painful lower back when Tony and I prayed for her. The next day, she and I prayed for a young lady who had an inherited spirit of occultism (from her grand-mother’s connection with a Muslim priest); she felt something moving in her stomach and her expression changed, as in: “she felt in her body that she was healed of her affliction” (Mark 5:29). The young lady’s evangelical mother told us that she had been praying every day for 7 years for this day of deliverance for her daughter. ••• Another young lady prayed to receive Jesus and was delivered of intense nervousness and stuttering; indeed, we saw a tremendous transformation in her speech & whole countenance!••• In another village, the Lord instantly healed the first lady we prayed for, and she ran around the village telling people about it. ••• In another village, one lady’s paralyzed right arm was healed immediately, and a gypsy lady with a crutch had her painful hip instantly healed. ••• A man living next to us (in the home base of our current area) had terminal cancer with only 3 months to live; we prayed for him and he accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior; we also prayed for his healing, and 2 days later the family called us from the hospital to say the doctors said the cancer was now in regression!
Bulgaria••• In one church, all 8 ladies who came forward for healing were “slain in the Spirit” (knocked over by the power of the Holy Spirit) and healed of what was afflicting them. ••• In the city where we were staying, the Lord ministered to 3 gypsy believers: Ilia was delivered from spirits of depression and suicide, his sister (who was close to death in the hospital) was healed, and another young man in the hospital was also healed. ••• In one village, while playing frisbee with some boys, I sprained my ankle (I heard quite a crunching sound), but when I got up off the ground I felt no pain at all and I knew that God had healed it. ••• We distributed Bibles, NTs, “Jesus” videos & DVDs, giant posters, frisbees, super-balls, etc. ••• During the last 9 trips, I was driving all of the time and was stopped by the police maybe 20 times for various traffic, driving, and parking violations, but I received only one $2 ticket during all of that time! And while going to more than 1200 villages, the Lord protected us through persecution from the army, police, communist mayors, Orthodox priests and believers, Muslim emams and believers, etc. Praise the Lord!
USA ••• 10 years earlier, God told my wife and I to stop praying for my father’s salvation … that He would take care of it. ••• Now in Bulgaria, for the first time in 7 trips, God persuaded me through 5 separate events (it’s a long story) to return home one month early! This was incredible, but because I did go home early, I had a couple of weeks to rest before getting a call from my sister (from Canada) who said that my father was in the hospital again, and that maybe I should come home soon. And I arrived exactly 24 hours before he died. During the day of his death, I was the only family member to converse with him. He was in a private room (which should have been a semi-private), and I felt comfortable praying out loud (so he could hear) for more than half an hour -- as I thanked Jesus, and praised Him, and covered the whole room (and us) with His blood, and chased any demons (who might have been there) out of the room. A few days later, after the funeral, my wife called to say that God had assured her very strongly that my father was in heaven! It seemed to us that his salvation was the result of God’s efforts to get me home one month early.
Bulgaria ••• We met 3 Pentecostal believers who were being persecuted and were called “insects” (praying mantises) by their village; one of them (who was talking in tongues a lot) said: "God sent you to sow seeds in the village; and also so everyone who hears the gospel message will have no excuse." This was a confirmation of what the Lord had told me years earlier: “I’m sending you to 2 types of people (the elect and the non-elect)”. ••• In the same village, God restored one lady who had lost her faith because of the terrible difficulties her blind husband was experiencing. ••• We actually helped in this “restoration” experience with several people. Some had kept the seed of faith for more than 60 years, all through the communist years until that very moment. For example, 2 elderly men cried the whole time while they were saying the sinner’s prayer.
I complied this from my diaries to show that God really deserves to be praised & glorified for who He is, and for the wonderful things He has done! My testimony reveals that God provides for, and protects, those whom He sends forth to do something for Him, and He confirms with signs and wonders that His precious gospel is the truth. Praise the Lord!
Last edited by evangelist-77; 06-22-2014 at 10:23 AM..
I disagree.
Person B is leaning to the Holy Spirit for understanding:
- Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness
- 2 Cor 3:6 - He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant – not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. The Holy Spirit will always align with what God IS:
"Those who know love, know God for God IS love." Love is:
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails.
Peace,
sparrow
[quote=twin.spin;35339963]Yes, you're wanting it to have it both ways
1) stereotype ministers ... course that isn't judging
2) Presuming ministers that I listen to are determining or judging what common sense, compassion God should have ... course that isn't judging
3) and since I must be hearing such messages, "it is hypocritical IMO" ... course that isn't judging
well, this is going to come as a surprise,
A: not every minister does
B: I don't have to get up when such things are not uttered
C: God doesn't kneel to the judging of the common sense of man.
Isaiah 55:8“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord.
D: When you judge what is "compassion" and "common sense" upon God as how he should treat the clay... God doesn't take that too kindly
Job 1:1-4 The Lord said to Job:“Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!”
Your IMO is what what earmarks the phrase "wanting it both ways"
WWJD .... maybe he would draw in the sand of an elephant sitting on a atheist while somebody was seriously explaining that there was no force involved but sheer weight that got the atheist to bow his knee.[/QUOTE
I have never heard another person wanting the terms "common sense" and "compassion" censored and especially on a religion forum. LOL.
Ministers do talk about those concepts. If they did not, it would be very difficult to give a sermon. You obviously feel threatened or offended by any views other than your own. I can ask any of my friends about their ministers and they tell me the same thing.
It has been awhile on city data since someone was so offended by a mere question that did not insult anyone. Just decline to answer or say you don't know instead of pouting about a few words.
Anyone that believes Jesus would post a cartoon with that elephant pretty much forfeits their credibility. I seriously doubt you would get any agreement there. LOL.
I really am amused at someone that IMO recklessly judges others to hell and makes another senseless and incorrect accusation. Christians should be doing the opposite.
Your partial eye rolls are just fake outrage. We tried reasoning with you, but you take this "my way or the highway" attitude. Anyone with a different view will be insulted.
Please do not address me again. People know what I believe and what you believe. We would just be rephrasing matters at this point. No point risking a further clash or flame war possibility and then the moderators would have to get involved. We tried to be respectful to you, but you don't play ball.
So be happy those agreeing with you are leading 17-8 and at the very least try not to be a sore winner. I am amused at your attitude.
I think we have the right to have different views on this topic and you have no such tolerance. That is the bottom line. You started the disrespect and insults far earlier than anyone else and deserved the replies you got from me. Galatians says "You reap what you sow".
Usually I can reason with those that differ. If you can simply not reply, I am done posting. Everyone knows what both of us believe. Pointless to take it further.
Matthew 7:1 "Do not judge or you too will be judged."
We all need to try to be more like .sparrow IMO. I fall short, but will work on it.
Goodbye.
Last edited by chessgeek; 06-22-2014 at 02:44 PM..
Person B is leaning to the Holy Spirit for understanding:
- Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness
- 2 Cor 3:6 - He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant – not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
The Holy Spirit will always align with what God IS:
"Those who know love, know God for God IS love."
Love is:
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails.
Peace,
sparrow
Now all of that is genuine Christianity. No one is being put down. It lifts spirits instead. Very good post! Peace to you as well.
Some people say that I reject God because I don't believe that He is causing people to suffer eternal torment. I am not rejecting God. I'm rejecting that which I do NOT believe. I don't believe in that picture of God. I believe it to be FALSE. Therefore, I reject it.
yes, that is not rejecting God, it is rejecting a belief that makes God look bad and makes no sense.
As an atheist I'd like to throw in my opinion, I grew up in a very religious Evangelical household. I was home schooled for 5 years. Christianity was central to my life until I was around 21, up to that point I occasionally had doubts, but wouldn't ever call myself a nonbeliever, I had accepted Christ as my savior at a young age. I had planned on becoming a missionary to central America. There was no single day when I thought, you know im living a lie, it was a transition over a few years. I was fearful of losing my faith and salvation in Christ. My family does not believe one can lose salvation who has truly accepted Christ, so I started wondering if I was ever a Christian. I sure thought I was all those years. I remember the first time I told someone I didn't believe in God, it actually startled me, but thats when I knew my faith was completely lost. From my experience, if heaven is for real, which I don't believe, no, I don't think atheists are saved. Of course Christians don't decide who gets saved, only God judges our souls, so who knows. To me, this is all in theory since I don't accept the idea of God or heaven.
You sound very familiar of a teenager who was told by his parents he wasn't truly saved to begin with because he wasn't serious about his decision for Christ simply because he was having a more difficult time going through his teen years. And this was reiterated by the church they went to.
Needless to say, this teen was crushed to hear that from his parents. And like you, this teen also "started wondering if I was ever a Christian." As hard as it may seem to believe coming from me, there is a proper place and understanding the context for why Jesus said "do not judge". ... it is for situations like yourself and for the teen I once knew.
Last edited by twin.spin; 06-22-2014 at 07:57 PM..
Some people say that I reject God because I don't believe that He is causing people to suffer eternal torment. I am not rejecting God. I'm rejecting that which I do NOT believe. I don't believe in that picture of God. I believe it to be FALSE. Therefore, I reject it.
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA
yes, that is not rejecting God, it is rejecting a belief that makes God look bad and makes no sense.
actually Jesus says otherwise ... and obviously he didn't care if people tried to accuse him of being closed minded or accused him of being threatened \ offended by any views other than his own.
John 8:46
Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me?
why? Jesus says why in the previous verse:
John 8:45
Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!
John 3:36... to believe this is FALSE, is to reject God
Matthew 7:1 "Do not judge or you too will be judged." .... to quote this as taking precedence over
John 7:24
"Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment"
Matthew 7:16
By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
Matthew 7:20
Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Luke 7:43
Simon replied, “I suppose the one who had the bigger debt forgiven.” “You have judged correctly,” Jesus said.
is the rebuking of Jesus' explicit authority for the Christian to judge the false teacher when he (the false teacher) claims that we aren't to judge at all.
actually Jesus says otherwise ... and obviously he didn't care if people tried to accuse him of being closed minded or accused him of being threatened \ offended by any views other than his own.
John 8:46
Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me?
why? Jesus says why in the previous verse:
John 8:45
Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!
John 3:36... to believe this is FALSE, is to reject God
Matthew 7:1 "Do not judge or you too will be judged." .... to quote this as taking precedence over
John 7:24
"Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment"
Matthew 7:16
By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
Matthew 7:20
Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Luke 7:43
Simon replied, “I suppose the one who had the bigger debt forgiven.” “You have judged correctly,” Jesus said.
is the rebuking of Jesus' explicit authority for the Christian to judge the false teacher when he (the false teacher) claims that we aren't to judge at all.
You amaze me with some of this stuff you come out with. Nobody accused him of being closed minded, it was those who held onto their handed down traditions that made the scriptures of no effect that were the closed minded. It is absolutely no different today, the bible believer like back then is nurtured upon the handed down traditions of men and calls it the word of God.
Simon's answer to Jesus was judging righteously, if he had answered differently he would have been judging by appearance.
By their fruit you shall recognize them, not by their beliefs.
Not sure if you know what fruit looks like Twinspin, but to help you recognize what it looks like, here you go.......... The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
You amaze me with some of this stuff you come out with. Nobody accused him of being closed minded, it was those who held onto their handed down traditions that made the scriptures of no effect that were the closed minded. It is absolutely no different today, the bible believer like back then is nurtured upon the handed down traditions of men and calls it the word of God.
Simon's answer to Jesus was judging righteously, if he had answered differently he would have been judging by appearance.
By their fruit you shall recognize them, not by their beliefs.
Not sure if you know what fruit looks like Twinspin, but to help you recognize what it looks like, here you go.......... The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Actually, Jesus explained what the fruit look like:
Matthew 7:15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves."
Truth is that false prophets uses deception, which is why Jesus warned:
Matthew 24:4
Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you."
speaking only the half truth is a form of deception, for example Jesus said:
Matthew 7:16 By their fruit you will recognize them.
and I recognized that you proceeded to speak the last half of recognizing them by their fruit while appearing to wantonly leaving out the first half on how we can recognize those people and their outcome:
Galations 5:19-21 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions,
factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like.
I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
despite trying as hard as you people attempt to accuse us of doing ... we are not judging when it has been declared in the Bible.
Last edited by twin.spin; 06-23-2014 at 09:01 AM..
Reason: spacing gremlins
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