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"Such a person who rejects what they don't believe is then rejecting being a atheist" <--- Say what?
yea ... it's not that hard. Think of it this way:
Sparrow: I don't believe Twin.
Sparrow: I don't believe Twin exists.
Sparrow: I reject what I don't believe.
I'm going to present this to language professors and ask them what is the end result of the last sentence.
And I'm going out on a limb on this ... you're going to shrug this off for no other reason other than being concerned with self preservation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow.
Then you misunderstand. (By the way, not all "atheists" have the same "mindset" you know. Just like not all "christians" have the same "mindset".) Anyway, you have misunderstood.
No, I understand you more than you think. I first stated:
"just because you don't like certain things that Jesus said which speaks to the condemning
and God's wrath remaining on those who reject him."
and predictably you came through:
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow.
Love does not NEED to FORCE itself, unlike the petty, tyrant god some believe in. "Believe in me or I'll torture you forever... rahhh!!!!"
Please. Give me a break. That's mankind's insecurities projecting onto God.
I'm going to present this to language professors and ask them what is the end result of the last sentence.
And I'm going out on a limb on this ... you're going to shrug this off for no other reason other than being concerned with self preservation.
twin, What exactly are you so hung up on about my saying people reject what they don't believe. If I don't believe the moon is made of cheese, I'm rejecting the idea that the moon is made of cheese. If you have a point, make it. If you think I've made some sort of grammar mistake, yeah, take it to a language professor if you're so concerned about it.
Some people say that I reject God because I don't believe that He is causing people to suffer eternal torment. I am not rejecting God. I'm rejecting that which I do NOT believe. I don't believe in that picture of God. I believe it to be FALSE. Therefore, I reject it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
No, I understand you more than you think. I first stated:
"just because you don't like certain things that Jesus said which speaks to the condemning and God's wrath remaining on those who reject him."
and predictably you came through:
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. Love does not NEED to FORCE itself, unlike the petty, tyrant god some believe in. "Believe in me or I'll torture you forever... rahhh!!!!"
Please. Give me a break. That's mankind's insecurities projecting onto God.
Do you see where in your quote of yours, you are putting words into my mouth. You are projecting things onto me. I never said or implied that I "don't like certain things that Jesus said".
There are a lot of people who worship "god" in their mind, yet their hearts are far from Him. wrath remains on them. YES. "Depart from me.." They will NEED correction.
While there are many who don't worship God at all in their mind, yet their hearts are in aligment with God. Again.. "When Father... when did I do these things..???!" they will ask.
twin, if you would like to converse further with me, I would ask that you stop putting words in my mouth, and implying things about me or implying REASONS why I believe what I do. It does not make for a productive conversation.
Of the the three false teachings of the atonement, Liberalism's version is the most dangerous.
As was stated in a different OP, Liberalism theology was summed up in this way by a theologian when in part he wrote :
Liberalism has no doctrine for a real atonement. Its understanding of the atonement, simply stated, is this: There is no enmity or wrath on God's part for the sinner. God's love is supreme.
All that is necessary is that the sinner come back to God and be forgiven.
Whether Jesus was God or not doesn't matter; whether he performed miracles or not doesn't matter.
The only significance of Jesus' dying on the cross was an attempt on God's part to
remove man's misconception about God; to teach him that God is not a stern judge, but a loving Father.
It's the bigger reason .... the attempting to have it both ways as written again below
Sure .... I projected you to say
"I'm rejecting that which I do NOT believe. I don't believe in that picture of God. I believe it to be FALSE. Therefore, I reject it."
Well, lets see what Jesus said (there are more than what is provided)
Matthew 23:33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemnedto hell?
Mark 16:16 "...... but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
John 3:18 ..... but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."
sure ... keep on thinking that " I never said or implied that I "don't like certain things that Jesus said". ...
What you FAIL to understand is just because I do NOT subscribe to your interpretation, then that does not mean that I don't "like what Jesus said". It just means that I don't subscribe to YOUR interpretation.
The irony is that it is those who condemn others, those who preach of eternal torment, that will be "condemned". But this "condemnation" is NOT eternal torment. or hell. It is ANNIHILATION. Annihilation of OLD, WRONG ideas about God. THAT is the only thing that is being "annihilated." We are ALL being refined. What is false, will be destroyed. What is truth, will survive. I put 100% faith in God to refine out of ME what needs to be refined. And I have 100% faith in God to do this for ALL of humanity. We are all brothers and sisters. We are not enemies, on one side or another. I do not see you as an enemy, twin. Do you see me as one? Just curious as to what your answer is, because I do not know.
Last edited by .sparrow.; 06-21-2014 at 01:32 PM..
Reason: Deleted because what I said will most likely be misconstrued.
What you FAIL to understand is just because I do NOT subscribe to your interpretation, then that does not mean that I don't "like what Jesus said". It just means that I don't subscribe to YOUR interpretation.
The irony is that it is those who condemn others, those who preach of eternal torment, that will be "condemned". But this "condemnation" is NOT eternal torment. or hell. It is ANNIHILATION. Annihilation of OLD, WRONG ideas about God. THAT is the only thing that is being "annihilated." We are ALL being refined. What is false, will be destroyed. What is truth, will survive. I put 100% faith in God to refine out of ME what needs to be refined. And I have 100% faith in God to do this for ALL of humanity. We are all brothers and sisters. We are not enemies, on one side or another. I do not see you as an enemy, twin. Do you see me as one? Just curious as to what your answer is, because I do not know.
Very well said, .sparrow! No, we are not supposed to be enemies.
For those that are so 100% certain that atheists are automatically sent to hell, please answer this. For those people who were seriously traumatized by abuse at the hands of a minister when they were children and as a result became atheist, agnostic, don't you believe God has the compassion and common sense to at least allow them into the kingdom (heaven)?
After all, the path they were on would likely have been totally different had they not been sexually molested.
I find the silence to my post #63 about the documentary about the church abuse scandals telling indeed. Unless by that silence, everyone agrees it has been a very serious matter for the church and we must have compassion and support the legal actions of those that have suffered. As a result, the last thing those in the church should be doing is condemning others to hell.
I am frankly shocked that so many continue to judge others much harsher than they would ever judge themselves. Some will judge an atheist all day long, but not say a word criticizing a pedophile minister. That is not a good message to send to those that are deciding whether to be Christians or not IMO.
Forgiveness and heaven for them. Condemnation for those that disagree. Don't think so. We have no right to dictate where God's mercy is directed. I am very comfortable leaving that decision to God and am a sensible and mature enough Christian to realize he will likely give it to others that don't have my exact views, too. We should be fine with that if we are truly sensible and accepting IMO.
Last edited by chessgeek; 06-21-2014 at 02:28 PM..
What you FAIL to understand is just because I do NOT subscribe to your interpretation, then that does not mean that I don't "like what Jesus said". It just means that I don't subscribe to YOUR interpretation.
The irony is that it is those who condemn others, those who preach of eternal torment, that will be "condemned". But this "condemnation" is NOT eternal torment. or hell. It is ANNIHILATION. Annihilation of OLD, WRONG ideas about God. THAT is the only thing that is being "annihilated." We are ALL being refined. What is false, will be destroyed. What is truth, will survive. I put 100% faith in God to refine out of ME what needs to be refined. And I have 100% faith in God to do this for ALL of humanity. We are all brothers and sisters. We are not enemies, on one side or another. I do not see you as an enemy, twin. Do you see me as one? Just curious as to what your answer is, because I do not know.
Jesus. Who showed the true nature of the Creator. "Father forgive them..."
Verse after verse after verse takes on a new, bolder, more magnificent meaning, when you realize that our Creator IS love. When you start to meditate on love and study it, you are, in essence studying and meditating on the Creator! It is a beautiful and freeing thing. It is the FIRST command. Afterall, you cannot BEGIN to love anything or anyone with all of your heart, mind and soul if you first do not BEGIN to KNOW that thing or person with all of your heart, mind and soul. Notice I say "begin to".
A verse like the one below, comes alive with passion:
Malachi 3:3 "He will sit as a refiner and
purifier of silver."
as you start to understand exactly what it means.
For all mankind.
If a person did this at one point in their life, but no longer believe in God or want anything to do with him, will they go to heaven simply because they confessed and believed at one point in their life, but rejected God in the end?
There are about a dozen verses warning that believers must endure with their faith
until the end of their lives to attain eternal life.
Of course, we have free will to believe them or not.
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