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The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God stands forever. (Isaiah 40:8)
It does NOT say the words of God. It says the Word of God who is Christ!
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As Jesus testified to the truth of Isaiah's prophecies concerning Him, so too does He testify to the truth of God's word:
“Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away." (Matt. 24:35)
THIS refers to Christ's words!
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I will tell you this. If you do not believe that God can preserve His words, how then can He save your eternal soul? You deny the fathers and prophets of old, whom God spoke His words and revealed His nature. Even now, you reject the Law and the Prophets which Christ accepted as truth. Truly, Jesus' words were never more poignant than here today...
“But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’” (Luke 16:31)
I take no pleasure in this, as it is very, very sad that there are those who have wandered so far.
I deny no such thing. I believe God can do anything . . . but I see no evidence whatsoever that He HAS done so with the Bible. It is a flawed human compilation subject to all the human frailties. Your refusal to engage in the Bible scholarship necessary to see it is Ostrich behavior in support of magical thinking.
It does NOT say the words of God. It says the Word of God who is Christ! THIS refers to Christ's words!I deny no such thing. I believe God can do anything . . . but I see no evidence whatsoever that He HAS done so with the Bible. It is a flawed human compilation subject to all the human frailties. Your refusal to engage in the Bible scholarship necessary to see it is Ostrich behavior in support of magical thinking.
Was Jesus doing magic when he walked on water or caused the blind to see or the lame to walk? Was Jesus doing magic or trickery when He rose from the grave? God is not magical, He is all-powerful and you deny His power to preserve His word. Rather, you rely on the wisdom of man.
Was Jesus doing magic when he walked on water or caused the blind to see or the lame to walk? Was Jesus doing magic or trickery when He rose from the grave? God is not magical, He is all-powerful and you deny His power to preserve His word. Rather, you rely on the wisdom of man.
Actually, we deny that He ever promised to or intended to preserve a BOOK. The means He SAID would be used to preserve His Word was the Spirit. You should remember what the Hebrew nation did with "words written in stone."
This is simply not true, JJ. In fact, it is a gross deception and an outright distortion of the actual truth.
Why do fundamentalists feel they have to lie to defend their faith. The earliest text you've got is a credit card sized fragment from John
The earliest complete manuscript of the NT is the Codex Sinaiticus dating from the mid-4th century. These 25,000 copies you speak of are just bits and pieces, most no larger than a tiny scrap of shredded paper containing not more than a few phrases or maybe one sentence.
The lies and the deceptions. Tsk tsk . What a crying shame.
Keep singing your song, thrill.
Between you, the sensible Christians, me, and the occasional atheist delivering a reality check - we can keep exposing these fundamentalists for what they are.
Between you, the sensible Christians, me, and the occasional atheist delivering a reality check - we can keep exposing these fundamentalists for what they are.
Oh can I guess what they are TroutDude? Please... pretty, please
Was Jesus doing magic when he walked on water or caused the blind to see or the lame to walk? Was Jesus doing magic or trickery when He rose from the grave? God is not magical, He is all-powerful and you deny His power to preserve His word. Rather, you rely on the wisdom of man.
He doesn't believe the Bible. He only believes the part about God giving His spirit, that of course not being the words of ignorant barbarians; he claims that spirit and becomes .... well smarter than the Bible writers. Oops that can also mean that the words about receiving God's spirit are ........ not true either.
Yep changes whatever he doesn't like to what he believes/says is true.
Jesus spoke of the men in his day who did that. They made the word of God invalid by .... their own thoughts and eventually they believed their thoughts were equal to Scripture so.... such people have lots of company today, according to what Jesus said about the pharisees.
It does NOT say the words of God. It says the Word of God who is Christ! THIS refers to Christ's words!I deny no such thing. I believe God can do anything . . . but I see no evidence whatsoever that He HAS done so with the Bible. It is a flawed human compilation subject to all the human frailties. Your refusal to engage in the Bible scholarship necessary to see it is Ostrich behavior in support of magical thinking.
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Originally Posted by JJ_Maxx
Was Jesus doing magic when he walked on water or caused the blind to see or the lame to walk? Was Jesus doing magic or trickery when He rose from the grave? God is not magical, He is all-powerful and you deny His power to preserve His word. Rather, you rely on the wisdom of man.
You ignore 2000+ years of accumulated human knowledge and understanding in favor of ancient ignorance and superstition that cannot even be attributed to real authors with real provenance. You refuse to educate yourself about this book you place all your faith and reverence in. You reject the New Covenant Christ instituted. You ignore what God has "written in our hearts" for words "written in ink" and stone under the Old Covenant. You rely on magical thinking and faith in our ignorant ancestors' beliefs about God.
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Originally Posted by expatCA
He doesn't believe the Bible. He only believes the part about God giving His spirit, that of course not being the words of ignorant barbarians; he claims that spirit and becomes .... well smarter than the Bible writers. Oops that can also mean that the words about receiving God's spirit are ........ not true either.
Yep changes whatever he doesn't like to what he believes/says is true.
I am not sure why you feel the need to misrepresent my views. I believe the Bible CONTAINS inspirations from God about Jesus the Word of God . . . but it is NOT the word of God. It is NOT the 100% inerrant word of God. IT is USEFUL (profitable) for instruction because it testifies of Christ. It is Christ the Living Word of God we should revere and follow . . . NOT the Bible. Christ abides with us as the Comforter (Holy Spirit), That Spirit (agape love) is how we are to TEST the Spirit of anything that is claimed to be from God or Jesus. If it is NOT compatible with agape love or the "mind of Christ" . . . it is NOT from God or Jesus. I do not use MY personal opinions . . . I use the absolute standard that is God's Holy Spirit . . . Agape love.
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Jesus spoke of the men in his day who did that. They made the word of God invalid by .... their own thoughts and eventually they believed their thoughts were equal to Scripture so.... such people have lots of company today, according to what Jesus said about the pharisees.
Those who make the Bible their authority and NOT the Spirit of agape love are the ones who make the Word of God (Jesus) invalid by making their own thoughts equal to scripture. They do NOT test the Spirit of the words "written in ink" against the guidance of the Comforter to what God has "written in our hearts." They do NOT trust what God has "written in our hearts." They invalidate the Spirit by making it conform to the words "written in ink" as THEY interpret them.
Yep record keeping was common, not just oral tradition. They wrote a LOT as they were a literate people (far more literate than many today).
Actually the Jewish people were some of the more illiterate people outside the priestly caste. Some of the comments in the NT gospels questioning Jesus being the messiah had to do with the less than glamorous reputation of those from Nazareth. "Is not this the Nazarene----," (imagine sneer, sneer).
It is a wonder that Jesus could apparently read and write.
This was an occupied nation. Women were mostly second class citizens and frequently viewed as chattel by husbands or parents. That's why Jesus had a relatively huge following of women, because He treated them with so much more respect than most men of that day. Romans weren't interested in taxing Jews to provide them with an education, they wanted money for the coffers in Rome. It would have been amazing if more than one in a score could read and/or write. Interestingly, I have read some second/third century church fathers complaining that the copyists were making errors because, while they knew how to copy, they couldn't read what they were copying to see if it made any sense. Education was nowhere close to widespread and by comparison the most illiterate nation in today's world would have appeared as a paragon of knowledge in the early first century.
Further, as Bart Ehrman has pointed out (I believe it was in MISQUOTING JESUS), the first copyists of early writings came from the poorest Jews whose education might be even more suspect. It was only after a number of decades (and certainly after the highly educated Paul) that middle and wealthy class Jews were finding an interest in Jesus and writings about Him. Then came the more educated copyist or priest who sometimes added marginal notes to copies that in later copies appear as codified.
So was the originally inspired version the one without marginal additions or were they simply thoughts God left out of the original and sort of added as a post-script?
Any way one cuts the mustard it is difficult for an inerrantist to maintain any credibility with regard to understanding scripture. What is sadder is that most feel their faith is threatened by the facts, indicating not faith in Jesus, but faith in words written about Jesus.
Between you, the sensible Christians, me, and the occasional atheist delivering a reality check - we can keep exposing these fundamentalists for what they are.
I'm not holding my breath, Trout. You slap them with the truth like I slapped JJ with the truth on that outright lie he tried to pass off as factual about those 25,000 manuscripts and all he does is ignores me because he has no dignified way to reply because he knows I was truthful about the manuscripts and he was deceptive.
That's what you're dealing with here, Trout.
And I'd also like to compliment Mystic and Warden on their excellent posts. I tried to rep you guys but as usual the system blocked me.
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