U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-25-2014, 04:32 PM
 
Location: Portland, OR
8,803 posts, read 7,292,423 times
Reputation: 4496

Advertisements

How do you refute someone who denies the existence of Jesus as a man? I've met quite a few people that think Jesus, even as an historical figure, never existed. Isn't it common historical knowledge that Jesus at least existed as a human being?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-25-2014, 04:39 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,196 posts, read 14,086,044 times
Reputation: 10085
Usually it's accepted that Jesus existed on earth. If they don't want to believe that - then they won't believe it.

I wouldn't work too hard at it - but if Jesus wants to make Himself known, He can still do that without our help.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-25-2014, 05:07 PM
 
7,856 posts, read 6,660,208 times
Reputation: 1371
One historian Flavius Josephus who was a 1st century Roman Jewish writer on the history of the Jewish wars and Antiquities of the Jews gave reference to Jesus the Messiah and even John the Baptist , and James brother of Jesus from this book Testimonium Flavianum..........See there were historians in those times apart from the biblical account ...... Some would say that Jesus never lived and was made up , Just wonder if they would deny that Abraham Lincoln or George Washington was also just made up , as no one in this time has seen these people , except historians
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-25-2014, 05:11 PM
 
Location: US
26,248 posts, read 13,909,589 times
Reputation: 1591
Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
One historian Flavius Josephus who was a 1st century Roman Jewish writer on the history of the Jewish wars and Antiquities of the Jews gave reference to Jesus the Messiah and even John the Baptist , and James brother of Jesus from this book Testimonium Flavianum..........See there were historians in those times apart from the biblical account ...... Some would say that Jesus never lived and was made up , Just wonder if they would deny that Abraham Lincoln or George Washington was also just made up , as no one in this time has seen these people , except historians
You forget about the controversy over that mention by Josephus...Interpolation...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-25-2014, 05:25 PM
 
34,440 posts, read 8,865,664 times
Reputation: 4783
I tend to argue that Tacitus is the only persuasive extra Biblical reference to the Gospel Jesus. I also argue the 'principle of embarrassment' which is that the Christians would have had Jesus born in Judea. That he was a Nazarene had to be explained in various ways. Also I doubt whether they would (had they made him up entirely) have had him crucified by the Romans. Stoned by the Sanhedrin perhaps. Those two items - and the temple cleansing, of course, suggests facts they were stuck with and had to explain, gloss over or (e.g. at the trial) ignore. That suggests to me that they had the story of a real person which was not altogether suitable for them.

I do agree that the Josephus potted biography looks very much an interpolation by a Christian writer. The reference to James as 'the brother of Jesus' now looks like a gloss and didn't refer to James the less at all.

Those are my reasons for thinking there really was an historical Jesus.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 12-25-2014 at 05:40 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-25-2014, 05:32 PM
 
1,441 posts, read 845,481 times
Reputation: 2708
VTHokieFan,
Some good responses so far.. and your question comes right on cue. If you're interested, the most recent issue (Jan/Feb 2015) of Biblical Archeology Review ran a decent, impartial article 'Did Jesus Exist', which cited some of the extra-biblical references to Jesus, & the existence of early Christians. Here's a link promoting their recent issue w/the article. I usually can find copies @ Barnes & Noble. Biblical Archaeology Review Magazine – Biblical Archaeology Society

ps., I'm looking forward to your Hokies' Military Bowl this weekend. peace
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-25-2014, 05:36 PM
 
Location: In God's Hand
1,100 posts, read 538,993 times
Reputation: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by VTHokieFan View Post
How do you refute someone who denies the existence of Jesus as a man? I've met quite a few people that think Jesus, even as an historical figure, never existed. Isn't it common historical knowledge that Jesus at least existed as a human being?
Extrabiblical accounts for Jesus's existence as well as other people mentioned in the NT.

Non-biblical accounts of New Testament events and/or people | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

There is another site that may include some other than what has been listed at that link above.

http://www.westarkchurchofchrist.org...rabiblical.htm
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-25-2014, 05:44 PM
 
3,751 posts, read 3,476,972 times
Reputation: 3491
I don't think there's any reason to believe he was historical unless you accept his miracles were historical too.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-25-2014, 06:49 PM
 
8,539 posts, read 11,869,117 times
Reputation: 3082
I believe there was some spark of truth in the stories of Jesus. In the same way that the stories of David were fabrications based on a real man. The stories were fictional, but they mentioned real places, etc. So the historicity of Jesus could have had some truth to it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-26-2014, 03:33 AM
 
44 posts, read 22,252 times
Reputation: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
I tend to argue that Tacitus is the only persuasive extra Biblical reference to the Gospel Jesus. I also argue the 'principle of embarrassment' which is that the Christians would have had Jesus born in Judea. That he was a Nazarene had to be explained in various ways. Also I doubt whether they would (had they made him up entirely) have had him crucified by the Romans. Stoned by the Sanhedrin perhaps. Those two items - and the temple cleansing, of course, suggests facts they were stuck with and had to explain, gloss over or (e.g. at the trial) ignore. That suggests to me that they had the story of a real person which was not altogether suitable for them.

I do agree that the Josephus potted biography looks very much an interpolation by a Christian writer. The reference to James as 'the brother of Jesus' now looks like a gloss and didn't refer to James the less at all.

Those are my reasons for thinking there really was an historical Jesus.

The 'principle of embarrassment 'means you have to know their beliefs well enough to know what would be embarrassing to them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top