Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Sure ... basically RCC and the LDS object to Luther and Protestantism (post#48-49) position that the God through the Bible teaches Sola Fide \ Sola Scriptura \ Sola Gratia.
As other previous posts stated because God revealed in the Bible the two cannons:
(1) the Law ofMoses, the Prophetsand the Psalms.
(2) the NT was inspired by God the Holy Spirit and Peter also stated that Paul's letters were the same as scriptures.
then by default Sola Fide \ Sola Scriptura \ Sola Gratia excludes the Apocrypha books and many aspects of Catholicism and virtually everything that Mormonism professes as non-biblical and non-inspired.
and Orthodoxy as well,
Well, actually what we reject is Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. Sola Gratia (if I'm translating that correctly as Grace Alone) is completely consistant with both the RCC and the Orthodox. The scripture we have would not exist were it not for the oral tradition which kept it alive until the parts that weren't originally written down (the gospels) could be. Holy Tradition Gave us scripture.
The bible even states that not everything taught by Christ and/or the apostles was written down. It's glaringly obvious in all four gospels that are there are huge chunks of Jesus's life, even during His ministry that are missing.
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle." (2 Thessalonians 2:15)
Sola Scriptura is defeated BY scripture. By WORD or our epistle, epistle means letter, so if the apostles didn't put everything they taught in these letters then it must have been transmitted orally. This is Holt Tradition.
All Christians know that they are saved by Grace, but where the Catholics and Orthodox like myself differ from protestants is what is meant by "Grace" for us, the commandments, the sacraments, life experiences, the opportunity to study scripture, anything at all that contributes to one's spiritual development is part of Grace. Grace is not a 100% belief-based get out of Hell free card. That is something scripture makes very clear, yet many protestants interpret Grace in that way. Which is why for them, the Apocrypha of the pre-protestant Old Testament is impossible to accept.
It also makes James an uncomfortable read which is why in the early days of Luther's rebellion against the RCC he wanted to do away with that one too.
Last edited by UtahOrBust994; 06-23-2015 at 09:24 PM..
Reason: additional info
I'm curious, UtahOrBust, do you believe any deceased person is capable of hearing you speak to him, or is it just those who have attained sainthood who are able to hear the living communicate with them?
I can asnwer- this being Orthodox- I don't know if the damned can hear us or not.
I know those who are on the path of theosis can and do intercede for us. I only know who some of those are-as there are many that have not made themselves known. I also know that I am to pray for the souls of the departed
Well, actually what we reject is Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. Sola Gratia (if I'm translating that correctly as Grace Alone) is completely consistant with both the RCC and the Orthodox. The scripture we have would not exist were it not for the oral tradition which kept it alive until the parts that weren't originally written down (the gospels) could be. Holy Tradition Gave us scripture.
The bible even states that not everything taught by Christ and/or the apostles was written down. It's glaringly obvious in all four gospels that are there are huge chunks of Jesus's life, even during His ministry that are missing.
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle." (2 Thessalonians 2:15)
Sola Scriptura is defeated BY scripture. By WORD or our epistle, epistle means letter, so if the apostles didn't put everything they taught in these letters then it must have been transmitted orally. This is Holt Tradition.
All Christians know that they are saved by Grace, but where the Catholics and Orthodox like myself differ from protestants is what is meant by "Grace" for us, the commandments, the sacraments, life experiences, the opportunity to study scripture, anything at all that contributes to one's spiritual development is part of Grace. Grace is not a 100% belief-based get out of Hell free card. That is something scripture makes very clear, yet many protestants interpret Grace in that way. Which is why for them, the Apocrypha of the pre-protestant Old Testament is impossible to accept.
It also makes James an uncomfortable read which is why in the early days of Luther's rebellion against the RCC he wanted to do away with that one too.
As I stated before ... all I was doing was giving the answer to the why.
As far as Luther and the book of James, once Luther realized the proper context of James, the Holy Spirit even further convinced him that Sola Scriptura \ Sola Fide \ Sola Gratia is and always has been the message of God unto those who are being saved.
"all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." (Romans 3:24) ... Sola Gratia
"know that a person is not justifiedby the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ." (Galatians 2:16) .... Sola Fide
"Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.†(Galatians 3:11) .... Sola Fide
"Sanctify them by thetruth; yourwordistruth." (John 17:17) .... Sola Scriptura
"Butthesearewritten that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." (John 20:31) .... Sola Scriptura
Sanctification \ Justification are the only means by which one is declared via Sola Scriptura \ Sola Fide \ Sola Gratia ... and “Solus Christus†(Christ Alone); and “Soli Deo Gloria†(To God Alone Be Glory).
Can you tell me what this doctrine is based on? Is there some scripture that says this or it is a doctrine established by tradition?
which doctrine are you looking for? Theosis or That those who were on the path at the moment of physical death remain part of the prayer life of the church?
The Former is most clearly (that I have found) in Wisdom of Solomon 4:7-14 which explains what happens when someone reaches a state of near complete theosis early.
"But though a righteous man may die before his time, he shall be at rest. For old age is not honored for its length of existence, nor measured by the number of years; for discernment is gray hair for mankind and a spotless life is the maturity of old age. There was once a man who was pleasing to God and loved by Him, and while living among sinners he was taken up. He was caught up lest evil change his understanding or deceit deceive his soul. For envy arising from lack of judgement obscures what is good, and a whiling of desire undermines and innocent heart. He was made perfect, for in a short time he fulfilled long years, for his soul was pleasing before the Lord. Therefore, He took him early out of the midst of evil." (Wisdom of Solomon 4:7-14)
The second is spread all over the bible actually
"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us." (Hebrews 7:25)
"For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:38-39)
"I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf" (Romans 15:30)
"And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne" (Revelation 8:3)
which doctrine are you looking for? Theosis or That those who were on the path at the moment of physical death remain part of the prayer life of the church?
The second one -- the idea that certain deceased individuals can hear the living asking for their help.
Quote:
The second is spread all over the bible actually
"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us." (Hebrews 7:25)
"For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:38-39)
"I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf" (Romans 15:30)
"And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne" (Revelation 8:3)
Thanks. I guess I just don't see those verses as meaning what you think they do. The last two seem to be referring to the prayers of the living on behalf of the deceased, not the other way around.
Can you tell me what this doctrine is based on? Is there some scripture that says this or it is a doctrine established by tradition?
I am not the best at proof texting- but first theosis is a process of spiritual growth- and restoration of our individual humanity as the image and likeness of God. Then we have 1 Corinthians 15:55 pointing to the defeat of death and the prayers of the saints.
Back on topic, can the people who are against the apocrypha being considered fully part of the biblical canon please show me a verse, any verse, that contradicts the rest of the bible, not your interpretation of it, or your pastor's or something you are choosing to interpret in a certain way in order to apply it to a situation which it has nothing to do with, but an actual contradiction between the apocrypha as defined in this thread's original post, and the rest of the bible.
Back on topic, can the people who are against the apocrypha being considered fully part of the biblical canon please show me a verse, any verse, that contradicts the rest of the bible, not your interpretation of it, or your pastor's or something you are choosing to interpret in a certain way in order to apply it to a situation which it has nothing to do with, but an actual contradiction between the apocrypha as defined in this thread's original post, and the rest of the bible.
Since the Bible is simply a testament of men who are pointing to God the apocrypha is every bit as valid as any other book written to testify to what God has done in their lives. Men have made, and continue to make mistakes in judgment and reasoning, so not everything written about God is fruit from a good tree.
Sin enters in when men begin to glorify the written page more than the One it is meant to point towards.
It's simply priorities. When I hear people speaking of "following the Word," or "living according to the Word," I know they really haven't had any kind of experential revelation from God because they still need a rulebook in black and white and that God has written nothing on the fleshly tablets of their hearts.
Since the Bible is simply a testament of men who are pointing to God the apocrypha is every bit as valid as any other book written to testify to what God has done in their lives. Men have made, and continue to make mistakes in judgment and reasoning, so not everything written about God is fruit from a good tree.
Sin enters in when men begin to glorify the written page more than the One it is meant to point towards.
It's simply priorities. When I hear people speaking of "following the Word," or "living according to the Word," I know they really haven't had any kind of experential revelation from God because they still need a rulebook in black and white and that God has written nothing on the fleshly tablets of their hearts.
Amen, Warden. Rep IOU.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
