Catholics And Lutherans Release ‘Declaration On The Way’ To Full Unity (tradition, Gospel)

[FKD19124]

Catholics and Lutherans Release

I really do not see how this is a good thing since the ELCA has tossed away some critical
teachings of the church such as Abortion, gay marriage and women clergy.
I left the ELCA lutheran church for those reasons.

This is like signing a pact with the devil. I see another schism coming.

[thinkalot]

Originally Posted by FKD19124

Catholics and Lutherans Release

I really do not see how this is a good thing since the ELCA has tossed away some critical
teachings of the church such as Abortion, gay marriage and women clergy.
I left the ELCA lutheran church for those reasons.

This is like signing a pact with the devil. I see another schism coming.

I don't understand your last line. If you disagree with what they "tossed away" why would you think it is signing a pact with the devil?

[hljc]

Actually it is a righteous thing that these churches are doing , as the unity between the churches will bring more power from God to do a Work of Christ , as it will tell antichrist spirit to get lost who ruled with divisions and has spiritual authority in Christ church , and the hearts of the spirit of believer who engage in division ........ Then if some of these churches condone teaching against the gay marriage , abortion, and woman clergy, this is Not in this agreement of unity , also this agreement will not dissolve the government of the Catholic church , and the Lutheran Church , as it make agreement on the Church , Ministry, and the Eucharist....... To remove the hatred which brings irreverence against the Holy Spirit ........ Still there can be some leader who will ignore this agreement and preach hatred against the other church which will be out of place from this agreement and be more of a church government issue .............

[Freak80]

There's always the LCMS and WELS for the Good Republican Christian crowd.

[CPPU12345]

That was the downside of being organized: declaring on everything. I knew the pains of being a sitting duck. Some villians would just use your universal loves to attack you.

[DT113876]

Originally Posted by FKD19124

Catholics and Lutherans Release

I really do not see how this is a good thing since the ELCA has tossed away some critical
teachings of the church such as Abortion, gay marriage and women clergy.
I left the ELCA lutheran church for those reasons.

That you think those things are so primary is part of the problem with being a Christian in America.

BTW, the ELCA has no official teaching on homosexuality, aside from affirming the dignity of every human being and their basic rights. They just agree to disagree on matters of sexual morality. It's an old Protestant principle called not binding the conscience of others.

[Patrick for Christ]

=FKD19124;41761481]Catholics and Lutherans Release

I really do not see how this is a good thing since the ELCA has tossed away some critical
teachings of the church such as Abortion, gay marriage and women clergy.
I left the ELCA lutheran church for those reasons.

This is like signing a pact with the devil. I see another schism coming.

I agree:

Here's the site if anyone is interested:Catholics and Lutherans Release

I'm not a Theologian so what I share is only personal opinion.

I am however a Informed and fully practicing Roman Catholic.

IF I understand this correctly Lutherans are claiming to have the Seven Sacraments as Instituted by Thirst [a point of agreement] validly.

This simply cannot be as they choose to give them up when Luther separated from the RCC.

In particular are two critically important conflicts:
by Jesus Himself:

1. Saint John Paul II issued a Doctrine [perhaps even a Dogma] on the Male Only Catholic Priesthood; in this document he listed three reasons WHY priest in an absolute sense have to be male gender:

1. Sacred Tradition based on 2,000 years of our history. Jesus himself choose 12 males as HIS Apostles Mt.10:1-3. And He held women in much higher regard than did the culture of his tome and location.

2. Ordination is one of the Seven Sacraments Instituted by Jesus Himself: Therefore no eartly power has the authority to change what Christ established.

3. The Most Holy Eucharist; the "Sum and the Summit" of Catholicism uses the words of Transubstantiation: "THIS IS MY BODY 7 AND THIS IS MY BLOOD" and five different authors
of the Divinely inspired Bible attest to this reality.

When this miracle takes place the priest is transformed .. in"to alter Christi" [Another Christ]. It is impossible for any female gender person to accomplish this task. Jesus was and is MALE gender so too must His priest be.

A second issue; again if I understand it correctly; deals with Sola Scriptura; [scripture alone] which has never in our 2,000 year old history been approved; and for very good reasons

"The Bible belongs to the Church; NOT the Chruch to the Bible."

The Bible was not fully authored until the end of the 1st Century or perhaps very early 2nd Century.

So there was a period of about 50 years where no bible existed. And YES the Bible is a Catholic Book. So just as in the OT times where word of mouth was the common form of teaching faith- beliefs; so too, the Catholic Church begun by Christ has a "start up" period" where the common form of faith-teaching was based on word of mouth and traditions.

"(28) Catholics and Lutherans agree that in Eucharistic worship the church participates in a unique way in the life of the Trinity: In the power of the Holy Spirit, called down upon the gifts and the worshiping community, believers have access to the glorified flesh and blood of Christ the Son as our food, and are brought in union with him and with each other to the Father. Eucharist as Reconciling Sacrifice of Christ and as Sacrifice of the Church’s Praise and Thanksgiving

[How can a women preiat of Bishop “effect” this??????] inserted by Patrick

(30) Lutherans and Catholics agree that in the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper, Jesus Christ himself is present: He is present truly, substantially, as a person, and he is present in his entirety, as Son of God and a human being. STATEMENT OF AGREEMENTS 21 Eschatological Dimension of Eucharist

11 5. Catholics and Lutherans agree that the church on earth lives from and is ruled by the word of God, which it encounters in Christ, in the living word of the gospel, and in the inspired and canonical Scriptures. Lutherans and Catholics agree that in human history, through words and deeds, God issued a message of grace and truth, which culminated in the saving death and resurrection of Jesus Christ."

THIS IS a Heresy! Our Doctrine teaches that it is Sacred Tradition + the Bible+ Magisterium Teachings that
is shared here. Again inserted by Patrick

"The proclaimed gospel has a primacy among the mediations of communion in Christ and his benefits, but receiving it in faith entails as well receiving the sacramental practices of baptism, 31 the Lord’s Supper or Eucharist, and absolution from sin—all as administered by those called to the ministry of word and sacrament."

"By these “means of grace,” the message of Christ engages with divine power the whole of human life with the forgiveness of sins, deepened union with Christ, and sanctification through the Holy Spirit. These means are also significant external, public “marks” of the community living in continuity with what Christ and his apostles instituted.13 7. Catholics and Lutherans agree that the church on earth is a communion (koinonia). It shares in God’s gifts offered for us by Christ, which, by being held in common, bring believers into unity and fellowship with each other. In the past, the conceptions of the church held by Lutherans and Catholics developed along diverging paths, but in the 20th century we have together appropriated the biblical notion of koinonia and applied it to the church in a process giving us a precious communality."

NOT being a theologian; what I share here is MY own Personal opinion:

BUT I do not see where the "Church" is empowered to grant Apostolic Succession [a Doctrine of the RCC] as essential to actual "apostolic authority"; until and unless full communion with the Church is obtained.

And from what I shared above the issues of a male only priesthood & Sola Scriptura; as well as the forgiveness of sin [God's WAY...John 20:19-23]; are not a bump; but a mountain to be leveled.

"The latter agreement, echoing also later (in No. 6), affirms as well the central role in both of our churches of practices with perceptible, embodied components, such as baptism, the Lord’s Supper or Eucharist, exercising the keys for the forgiveness of sins, and designating and ordaining members for the pastoral office of preaching, sacramental celebration, and pastoral care. A further perceptible element at the very center of the lives of believers and communities in both our churches are the Scriptures that we take to be inspired and canonical (No. 5). 15 The Church: Towards a Common Vision states in § 23 that the church "

While I strong favor reunion; the RCC cannot give new definitions to defined Doctrines. Truth is as it must be; singilar. Amen!

Patrick for Christ

[sheena12]

As a Protestant and an ELCA Lutheran, I certainly hope not.

[Snowball7]

This is nothing but chitter chatter and a feel-good ecumenical piece of paper.
It is only a document of the ecumenical body within the USCCB. Essentially it
means nothing. Even the USCCB can do nothing in the Catholic Church without
the Holy See. It's a 50-year summary of working with Protestants since V2..
and I'm sure those in this group will make a big deal over getting from 32 points
of agreement to 33 and 34 up until the things which can never be held in common
are reached. It's an exercise in schmoozing and points of common interest where
they lie, nothing more.
If you want an example of which Episcopal or Lutherans can come back in to
the RCC take a look at the Anglican Ordinates, they are the only ones, and
they are composed of thoroughly traditional clergy and laity.

[Patrick for Christ]

Originally Posted by Snowball7

This is nothing but chitter chatter and a feel-good ecumenical piece of paper.
It is only a document of the ecumenical body within the USCCB. Essentially it
means nothing. Even the USCCB can do nothing in the Catholic Church without
the Holy See. It's a 50-year summary of working with Protestants since V2..
and I'm sure those in this group will make a big deal over getting from 32 points
of agreement to 33 and 34 up until the things which can never be held in common
are reached. It's an exercise in schmoozing and points of common interest where
they lie, nothing more.

If you want an example of which Episcopal or Lutherans can come back in to
the RCC take a look at the Anglican Ordinates, they are the only ones, and
they are composed of thoroughly traditional clergy and laity.

Thanks, but i still find it disconcerting.

God Bless,

Patrick