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But I left the Other prophecy thread alone. And I'll probably leave this one alone.
I'll just leave this critical tool for whoever wants to use it.
Prophecy was done in some demonstrable cases by starting with something you wanted to link with a prophecy. The death of Judas in Acts 1 (Luke) and Matthew. If you compare the prophecies with the OT originals, they are a right mess. Look for yourself. The OT had to be fiddled to make it fit the story the writers were telling. Another example was found not long ago with James at the council of Jerusalem misquoting Amos to make it fit the story.
Matthew's prophecy of the massacre of innocents, the prediction of the Virgin birth, Caiphas' prophecy in John are similar and thus the (various) quotes from Psalms at the crucifixion and, so it starts to look, the prophecy of the spear -stab, also begin to look suspect.
Mike... Provide specific examples we can discuss. Most examples of the bible predicting the future are based on vague passages that could mean anything using a broad enough interpretation.
Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Joel 3:6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border.
Frank, Luke was written circa 90 AD---LONG after the Jews had been dispersed in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. It doesn't take prophetic vision to "prophesize" an event decades after it has taken place.
Joel 3:6 The Jews were never sold to the Greeks. Failed prophecy.
There are many compelling 'proofs' that Scripture/the Bible is God's Inspired Word of Truth. It is historically indisputable that the Bible is filled with accurately fulfilled Prophecies (historical, Messianic and End Time). To summarize:
1. Accurately fulfilled Bible Prophecy exceeds any human frame of reference
• 3,000 accurately fulfilled historical, Messianic and End Time prophecies affirm God’s inspiration
• There is no other rational explanation or human frame-of-reference for accurately fulfilled prophecy
• Bible prophecy affirms God’s direct, beginning-to-end involvement in human life
Is it possible to intelligently discuss this without resorting to 'name calling' and personal attacks?
Including Isaiah's prophecy about Babylon and its fall. Many claimed it was written after the fact (With no proof just supposition). Oops, oldest copies now match the linguistic style, etc of Daniel's time, not a later time. There went one objection.
Here are just a few Messianic Prophecies -- There are a ton of other direct historical prophecies that were accurately fulfilled, if anyone is interested in more than simply nay-saying:
300 MESSIANIC PROPHECIES
Over 300 Messianic prophecies reveal intimate details of a long awaited Messiah and deliverer of mankind, promised by God. These amazingly clear and explicit Messianic prophecies were accurately fulfilled in every aspect of the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, during His earthly lifetime. They leave no doubt that Jesus Christ alone is the long-awaited Messiah and Savior of mankind promised by God. There are also numerous prophecies affirming the ‘End Time’ return of Christ to earth.
In his book, “Science Speaks – An Evaluation of Certain Christian Evidences”, Professor Peter Stoner mathematically calculated the probability of any one person in history accurately fulfilling only a few of Scripture’s 300-350 Messianic prophecies. Professor Stoner narrowed-down his analysis to only include eight specific prophecies. He then drew calculated conclusions about the odds of any other living individual accurately fulfilling only these eight Messianic prophecies.
• Based on the estimated number of people that lived until the birth of Christ, the odds were 1X10 to the twenty-eighth power of any one person accurately fulfilling these eight prophecies (That’s 1 in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000!)
• Based on the estimated number of living people until modern times (1957), the odds were reduced to 1X10 to the seventeenth power!
The addition of even more prophecies beyond these eight, is pointless. The odds of any other person in history fulfilling only a fraction of the Messianic prophecies accurately fulfilled by Jesus Christ, are already astronomically impossible! [#2P).]. The eight Old Testament prophecies selected by Professor Stoner (and unquestionably fulfilled by Jesus Christ), were:
1. Born in Bethlehem - Micah 5:2
2. A messenger (John the Baptist), sent to prepare His way – Malachi 3:1
3. Entered Jerusalem as a ‘ruler,’ riding on a colt (foal of an ass) – Zechariah 9:9
4. Wounds in hands suffered as a result of the betrayal of a friend –Zechariah 13:6
5. Betrayed for 30-pieces of silver - Zechariah 11:12
6. Silver returned, but, not accepted; given (cast) to the potter – Zechariah 11:13
7. Oppressed/afflicted, like a lamb to slaughter, yet, spoke not a word (Isaiah 53:7)
8. Hands and feet pierced in the assembly of the wicked – Psalm 22:16
In his forward to Dr. Stoner’s book, H. Harold Hartzler, Ph.D, the Secretary-Treasurer to “American Scientific Affiliation” writes: “The manuscript ‘Science Speaks’ has been carefully reviewed by a committee of the American Scientific Affiliation members…and Executive Council…and has been found, in general, to be dependable and accurate in regard to the scientific material presented. The mathematical analysis included is based upon principles of probability which are thoroughly sound and Professor Stoner has applied these principles in a proper and convincing way.” (#3P). )
There are many compelling 'proofs' that Scripture/the Bible is God's Inspired Word of Truth. It is historically indisputable that the Bible is filled with accurately fulfilled Prophecies (historical, Messianic and End Time). To summarize:
1. Accurately fulfilled Bible Prophecy exceeds any human frame of reference
• 3,000 accurately fulfilled historical, Messianic and End Time prophecies affirm God’s inspiration
• There is no other rational explanation or human frame-of-reference for accurately fulfilled prophecy
• Bible prophecy affirms God’s direct, beginning-to-end involvement in human life
Is it possible to intelligently discuss this without resorting to 'name calling' and personal attacks?
Do you ever try to figure things out by yourself without using other peoples' work?...
You didn't, and cannot prove any such thing and neither did Thomas Paine. As I showed you in post #2 of your thread, many Jewish rabbis' through the centuries have understood Isaiah 53 to be referring to the Messiah.
And Philip, one of the apostles of Jesus preached Jesus Christ to the Ethiopian eunuch from Isaiah 53. Philip obviously understood that Isaiah 53 referred to Jesus.
Acts 8:26 Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Rise and go toward the south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.†This is a desert place. 27] And he rose and went. And there was an Ethiopian, a eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure. He had come to Jerusalem to worship 28] and was returning, seated in his chariot, and he was reading the prophet Isaiah. 29] And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go over and join this chariot.†30]So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?â€31] And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?†And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. 32] Now the passage of the Scripture that he was reading was this: “Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter and like a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he opens not his mouth. 33] In his humiliation justice was denied him. Who can describe his generation? For his life is taken away from the earth.†34] And the eunuch said to Philip, “About whom, I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?†35] Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus.
Jesus read from Isaiah 61 and stated that He had fulfilled the prophesy.
Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read. 17] And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written, 18] “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, 19] to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.†20] And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. 21] And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.â€
Jesus read Isaiah 61:1 and 2a. That part of the prophesy was fulfilled by Jesus at His first advent. He didn't read the remainder of the prophecy because it is to be fulfilled at His second advent.
Jesus Himself stated that Moses wrote about Him.
John 5:46 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
Here are just a few examples of approximately 3000 historical prophecies by the dates they were written and fulfilled.
Prophecy: Ex. 17:14-16, Before 1500 B.C. - Amalekites will be utterly destroyed; blotted from the earth (Ex17:14 NRS) Fulfillment: 1 Sam. 15:2-8, 1 Chr. 4:42-43, 1050 B.C., 750 B.C. - (1 Sam 15:7-8 NRS) Saul defeated the Amalekites, from Havilah as far as Shur. (Destroyed and never again a nation)
Prophecy: Dt. 4:25-31, 28:41, Before 1500 B.C. – Israel will go into Exile and captivity (D 28:41 NIV) Fulfillment: 2 Ki.11; & 24 –25, 722-587 B.C. - Assyrians conquered the northern kingdom; Babylon conquered the South (Israel) and led Israel into captivity for 70+ years.
Prophecy:Dt. 28:36, 1400 B.C. - A King over Israel Fulfillment: I Sam. 8: numerous, 1050 B.C. - (1 Sam 11:15 NRSV) Saul King
Prophecy:Josh 6:26, 1380 B.C. – Jericho would be rebuilt; but builders oldest and youngest sons would die Fulfillment: (I Kings 16:34 NIV) 1000B.C. During King Ahab's reign, Hiel of Bethel rebuilt Jericho. His two sons died during the laying of the foundation
Prophecy:2 Ki. 21:23, 900 B.C. – Jezebel will be eaten by dogs Fulfillment: 2 Ki. 9:30-37, 880 B.C. - Jezebel was killed her body was left in the streets until it was torn apart by dogs
Prophecy:Num. 14:17-20, 24:17 1200 B.C. A powerful king in Israel would conquer lands of Moab, Edom and Amalek. Fulfillment: 2 Sam 8:1-14 (800?) B.C. . -- David became king of Israel and conquered Moab, Edom and Amalek
Prophecy:2 Ki. 20:14-18 - 720 B.C. Hezekiah’s Kingdom to fall to Babylon (2 Ki 20:16-17 NRSV) Fulfillment: 2 Ki. 24 – 25, 605 B.C. - (2 Ki 24:11-12 NRSV {11}… King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon defeated Judah and led the people into Babylonian captivity
Prophecy:Zeph. 2:13-15; Nahum 3:19, 620 B.C. - Assyria would be conquered and the capital, Nineveh would be permanently destroyed . Fulfillment: 612 B.C. - 2 Ki. 24 - Assyria and Nineveh were conquered by Babylon ; Nineveh was permanently destroyed and has never been rebuilt.
Prophecy:Isa. 13:1-22; Jer. 5:24,26,43, 720 BC., 600 BC Babylon, the most powerful nation in the known world, will be conquered by the Medes and Persians Fulfillment: Dan. 5:24-31, 536 B.C. - Babylon conquered in 538 B.C. by Cyrus the Persian; Is. 13:20, [Rev. 18 - End Time destruction. - . Some believe a rebuilt Babylon (in Iraq) will be destroyed (Iran?)
Prophecy:Jer. 25:11-12 – prox. 620 B.C. – Israel will be held captive by Babylon for 70 years Fulfillment: 2 Ki. 24:25; 2 Chr. 36:21 - 605 B.C. to about 538 B.C. – Babylon took Israel captive in 586 BC. – Israel returned in 516 BC (70 yrs)
Prophecy:Isa. 13:20, Jer 15:29 700 BC Babylon will remain desolate and uninhabited: Fulfillment: Is. 13:21-22 – Wild beasts Ancient Babylon was destroyed and has never been rebuilt; wild animals inhabit – (S. Hussein started to restore Babylon)
Prophecy:Is. 14:23 700 B.C. Babylon will be reduced to a desolate swampland Fulfillment: (539 BC – Babylon conquered by Cyrus the Mede; never rebuilt). -- “A large part of the old city remains buried under a deep bed of silt
Prophecy:2 Ki. 19:6-7–700 BC Assyrian King would return to his own land, where he would die by the sword. Fulfillment: (Isa 37:37-38 NRSV) King Sennacherib of Assyria returned home to Nineveh, where his own sons killed him by the sword
Prophecy:Ez. 26:3, 12, 21 587 BC; Zech 9:3-4, 520 BC – Rich kingdom of Tyre to be completely destroyed by fire. Fulfillment: 332 BC Alexander the Great destroyed Tyre by fire and cast ruins into the sea; artifacts of original Tyre are rarely found
Prophecy:Mt.24:1-2 – 30 AD – Jerusalem Temple destroyed. and every stone cast down (Mt.24) Fulfillment: 70 AD – The temple was destroyed by Romans who pried apart stones to remove the gold (**AB - Historian Josephus)
Prophecy: Lk 21:24, 30 AD – Jerusalem will be destroyed, but restored after ‘times of the gentiles’ Fulfillment: In 1967, after the 6-Day Yon Kipper War, Jerusalem again became the restored capital of Israel. Temple ready to be restored.
Prophecy:Deut. 29:23, 1400 BC – Israel would become wasteland, (Lev. 26:31-32) inhabited by its enemies. Fulfillment:135 AD to 1948 – Palestine remained desolate and barren until Israel nation established; inhabited by a host of Arab nations
Prophecy:Zech 8:13 –520 BC; Jer 32:37-41– prox. 600 BC – Jews will be preserved and ultimately return to their homeland. Fulfillment: 1948 – For the first time in over 2000 years, Jewish nation of Israel restored. Since then, millions of Jews have returned to Israel.
Prophecy:Ex. 17:14-16, Before 1500 B.C. - Amalekites Destoryed;
(Exo 17:14 NRSV) Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write this as a reminder in a book and recite it in the hearing of Joshua: I will utterly blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven." Fulfillment: 1 Sam. 15:2-8, 1 Chr. 4:42-43, 1050 B.C., 750 B.C. - (1 Sam 15:7-8 NRSV) Saul defeated the Amalekites, from Havilah as far as Shur, which is east of Egypt. {8} He took King Agag of the Amalekites alive, but utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword. Fulfillment:(1 Chr 4:43 NRSV) they destroyed the remnant of the Amalekites that had escaped, and they have lived there to this day.
Prophecy:Dt. 4:25-31, 28:41, Before 1500 B.C. – Exile and captivity of Israel (D 28:41 NIV) You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. Fulfillment: 2 Ki. 11; and 24 – 25, 722 B.C. - Assyrian conquered the northern kingdom of Israel and took the people into captivity. – 605, 597, 587 B.C. – Babylon conquered the southern kingdom of Judah and took the people into captivity.
Prophecy:Dt. 28:36, 1400 B.C. - A King in Israel
(Deu 28:36 NRSV) The LORD will bring you, and the king whom you set over you, Fulfillment: I Sam. 8: numerous, 1050 B.C. - (1 Sam 11:15 NRSV) So all the people went to Gilgal, and there they made Saul king before the LORD
Prophecy:Josh 6:26, 1380 B.C. – Jericho would be rebuilt; but builders oldest and youngest sons would die as the foundation was laid and the gates set-up (I Kings 16:34 NIV) Fulfillment: In Ahab's time, Hiel of Bethel rebuilt Jericho. He laid its foundations at the cost of his first-born son Abiram, and set up its gates at the cost of his youngest son Segub.
Prophecy:2 Ki. 21:23, 900 B.C. – Jezebel will be eaten by dogs
(1Ki21:23 NRSV) …the Lord said, 'The dogs shall eat Jezebel within the bounds of Jezreel.' Fulfillment: 2 Ki. 9:30-37, 880 B.C. - (2 Ki 9:34-35 NRSV) “ … when they went to bury her, they found no more of her than the skull and the feet and the palms of her hands.”
Prophecy:Num. 14:17-20, 24:17 1200 B.C. A more powerful, eminent king would rise in Israel and conquer the lands of Moab, Edom and Amalek. 2 Sam 8:1-14; ____ B.C. . -- Fulfillment: David became king of Israel and conquered Moab, Edom and Amalek
Prophecy:2 Ki. 20:14-18 - 720 B.C. Hezekiah’s Kingdom to fall to Babylon (2 Ki 20:16-17 NRSV) Then Isaiah said to Hezekiah, "Hear the word of the LORD: {17} Days are coming when all that is in your house, and that which your ancestors have stored up until this day, shall be carried to Babylon; nothing shall be left, says the LORD. Fulfillment: 2 Ki. 24 – 25, 605 B.C. - (2 Ki 24:11-12 NRSV {11}… King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon came to the city, while his servants were besieging it; {12} King Jehoiachin of Judah gave himself up to the king of Babylon, himself, his mother, his servants, his officers, and his palace officials. The king of Babylon took him prisoner in the eighth year of his reign.
Prophecy:Zeph. 2:13-15; Nahum 3:19, 620 B.C. - Assyria conquered and Nineveh destroyed Assyria and Nineveh would be conquered by Babylon; and completely and permanently destroyed. Fulfillment: 612 B.C. - 2 Ki. 24 - Assyria and the powerful city of Nineveh were conquered by Babylon (king Nebuchadnezzar ) Ninevah was permanently destroyed and never rebuilt.
Prophecy: Isa.13:1-22; Jer. 5:24,26,43,- 720 BC, 600BC -- Babylon, the most powerful nation in the world, would be conquered by the Medes and Persians Fulfillment: Dan. 5:24-31, 536 B.C. - Babylon conquered in 538 B.C. by Cyrus the Persian Is. 13:20, [Rev. 18 - End Time destruction. - . Some believe a rebuilt Babylon (in Iraq) will be destroyed in the End Time]
Prophecy: Jer. 25:11-12 – prox. 620 B.C. – Israel Captive to Babylon 70 years. (Jer 25:11 NRSV) This whole land (Israel) shall become a ruin and a waste, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. Fulfillment: 2 Ki. 24:25; 2 Chr. 36:21 - 605 B.C. to about 538 B.C. – Babylon began dominating Judah in 605 B.C., taking many captive, and destroying Jerusalem’s temple in 586 BC. In 539BC, Cyrus the Mede conquered Babylon and in 516 BC the Jews rebuilt the temple. (AA*) (586BC to 516BC – 70 years)
Prophecy: Isa. 13:20, Jer 15:29 700 BC Babylon will remain desolate and uninhabited: (Isa 13:20 NRSV) It will never be inhabited or lived in for all generations; Arabs will not pitch their tents there, shepherds will not make their flocks lie down there. Is. 13:21-22 – Wild beasts will make their homes in the ruins of Babylon. Alexander the Great died in 323 B.C. while trying unsuccessfully to restore Babylon. Today, Sadaam Hussein is reportedly attempting to rebuild ancient Babylon (Iraq). Still, Babylon remains unsettled; there are no sheepfolds there; and even the wild Arabs avoid the place and refuse to pitch their tents there; Owls and wild beasts of the desert make their homes there (**Stoner, Hamilton, Laupold; Layard –*AB.)
Fulfillment: Is. 14:23 700 B.C. Babylon reduced to a desolate swampland (Isa 14:23 NIV) "I will turn her into a place for owls and into swampland; I will sweep her with the broom of destruction," declares the LORD Almighty.” (539 BC – Babylon conquered by Cyrus the Mede; never rebuilt). -- “A large part of the old city buried under a deep bed of silt remains to be found, and the Babylon of Hammurabi, of which only the slenderest traces have been detected, now lies beneath the water table.” (Encyclopedia Britannica, 1970, Vol. 2, p. 950 (#Biblio).
Prophecy: 2 Ki. 19:6-7–700 BC Assyrian King to die by the sword (2 Ki. 19:7) I myself will put a spirit in him, so that he shall hear a rumor and return to his own land; I will cause him to fall by the sword in his own land.'" Fulfillment: (Isa 37:37-38 NRSV) Then King Sennacherib of Assyria left, went home, and lived at Nineveh. {38} As he was worshiping in the house of his god Nisroch, his sons Adrammelech and Sharezer killed him with the sword, and they escaped into the land of Ararat.
Prophecy:Ez. 26:3, 12, 21 587 BC; Zech 9:3-4, 520 BC – Tyre to be completely destroyed. (Zec 9:3-4 NRSV) Tyre has built itself a rampart, and heaped up silver like dust, and gold like the dirt of the streets. {4} But now, the Lord will strip it of its possessions and hurl its wealth into the sea, and it shall be devoured by fire.
Fulfillment: 573 BC – Babylon initially waged a 13-year siege of Tyre, but was not able to destroy the powerful Phoenician city.; 333-332 BC Alexander the Great conquered the mighty Phoenician city of Tyre. It is believed that he built a land bridge to the city and ultimately cast Tyre’s ruins into the sea. The city was never revived again. Today, even finding artifacts from the original Tyre is difficult. (** AB-100)
Prophecy: Mt.24:1-2 – 30 AD - Temple destroyed. (Mt.24) As Jesus …”Truly I tell you, not one stone will be left here upon another; all will be thrown down.” Prophecy: (Dan. 9:26 – 530 BC) – Temple destruction after the Holy One/Messiah is cut off (killed) Fulfillment:70 AD – The first temple was destroyed by the Babylonians in 586 BC and rebuilt 70 years later. The rebuilt temple stood for 586 years and was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD. The Roman destruction by fire melted the gold ornamentation, which settled into crevices in the stones. The Romans pried apart the stones to remove the gold. (** Historian Josephus; 100 Bible Prophecies).
Prophecy: Lk 21:24, 30 AD – Jerusalem will be destroyed, but restored after ‘times of the gentiles’ (Lk 21:24 NRSV) they will fall by the edge of the sword and be taken away as captives among all nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Fulfillment:70 AD, 135 AD – The Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD and again in 135 AD. They killed an estimated 1.5 million Jews and took hundreds of thousands captives. In 1967, after the 6-Day Yon Kipper War, Jerusalem again became the restored capital of Israel. Many believe the time of the Gentiles were fulfilled at that time.
Prophecy: Deut. 29:23, 1400 BC – Israel would become wasteland, (Lev. 26:31-32) inhabited by its enemies. Fulfillment:(Deu 29:23 NIV) The whole land will be a burning waste of salt and sulfur--nothing planted, nothing sprouting, no vegetation growing on it. It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in fierce anger.
Prophecy:135 AD to 1900’s – “Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes … the spell of a curse that has withered its fields and fettered its energies … Palestine is desolate and unlovely …a hopeless, dreary, heartbroken land (from Mark Twain’s, Innocents Abroad, 1867) Fulfillment:Throughout history, Israel has been inhabited by Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans and a host of Arabs, including modern-day Palestinians.
Prophecy: Zech 8:13 –520 BC; Jer 32:37-41– prox. 600 BC – Jews will be preserved and ultimately return to their homeland. Fulfillment: 1948 – For the first time in over 2000 years, Jewish nation of Israel restored. Since then, millions of Jews have returned to Israel.
Do you ever try to figure things out by yourself without using other peoples' work?...
Actually, I've been working these issues for the past 25+-years and have two of my own books in process - The section you objected to is my work, unless otherwise noted, such as with Professor Stoner's quotes, which are pretty compelling (and beyond my math skills).
What is your objection? Do you have any facts, figures or information ... or are you simply here to snap-out one-liners that tear down others .... without adding any substance or merit of your own?
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